• Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by ExCon90
 
This has been discussed to death. Economics and regulation made it impossible for a private company to make a profit on passenger operations -- advantages or disadvantages of different types of equipment were immaterial.
  by ExCon90
 
gokeefe wrote:
adamj023 wrote:The new train is quite frankly a revolutionary design in that it incorporates both articulated trainsets with an active tilting system. This particular combination has not been done anywhere else in the world in high speed operations.
There's an unfortunate reason for that. Elsewhere, high-speed routes follow "greenfield" alignments specifically designed not to have restrictive curves that require tilting (shows what it is to have money and power, and the will to use both -- I'm not recommending untrammeled exercise of government power, just taking note of it). Our problem here is to build a high-speed line through affluent developed suburban communities in certain well-known counties, notably in Maryland, New York, and Connecticut.
  by gokeefe
 
Europe has precisely the same problems with real estate and alignment that is just as expensive and (even worse) chock full of layer after layer of ancient ruins.

In some cases the Europeans (and lately the Chinese) punt and build a high speed terminal outside the urban core (St. Pancras in London). In other situations (Germany) the urban core was bombed so badly that the opportunity arose to build new through the middle of the city (Munich is a perfect example).

Realignment is not a joke anywhere and alignment issues are often controversial. In China they take your house and might pay you if you keep quiet. In Europe and the U.S. it's a very different story.

Measuring the efficiency of the Northeast Corridor by top speed alone is in my opinion always a mistake. What makes the NEC so special is the mixed traffic operations to include a nearly infinite combination of power, motor configurations (EMUs etc), equipment speed ratings, agencies, freight operators, labor unions and even signal systems.

You simply will not find a comparable peer anywhere else in the world. Everyone else mitigates complexity through temporal/spatial separation, uniform equipment, uniform construction, uniform signals, single agency operators and/or single mode.
  by Tadman
 
St. Pancras may not be directly downtown but three of the most important terminals in town are all within 100 meters - St. Pancras, King's Cross, and Euston. I don't doubt half of UK rail traffic originates or terminates here.
  by Suburban Station
 
ExCon90 wrote:This has been discussed to death. Economics and regulation made it impossible for a private company to make a profit on passenger operations -- advantages or disadvantages of different types of equipment were immaterial.
there was an interesting article in this month's trains magazine talking about how short distance freight and passenger share a lot of the same similarities and infrastructure needs. this is why FEC got into the passenger business, they run a scheduled, short haul railroad. while running short haul freight may not make passenger rail profitable, it certainly has the potential to mitigate its losses if some of the infrastructure is then cross-subsidized.
  by AC4619
 
gokeefe wrote:Europe has precisely the same problems with real estate and alignment that is just as expensive and (even worse) chock full of layer after layer of ancient ruins.

In some cases the Europeans (and lately the Chinese) punt and build a high speed terminal outside the urban core (St. Pancras in London). In other situations (Germany) the urban core was bombed so badly that the opportunity arose to build new through the middle of the city (Munich is a perfect example).

Realignment is not a joke anywhere and alignment issues are often controversial. In China they take your house and might pay you if you keep quiet. In Europe and the U.S. it's a very different story.

Measuring the efficiency of the Northeast Corridor by top speed alone is in my opinion always a mistake. What makes the NEC so special is the mixed traffic operations to include a nearly infinite combination of power, motor configurations (EMUs etc), equipment speed ratings, agencies, freight operators, labor unions and even signal systems.

You simply will not find a comparable peer anywhere else in the world. Everyone else mitigates complexity through temporal/spatial separation, uniform equipment, uniform construction, uniform signals, single agency operators and/or single mode.
Mr. Gokeefe,

Yes, you're right that it's more challenging to run the NEC--and to stay on topic--a fast Acela service--than on a non-mixed-use-line. However, other countries frequently have redundant commuter lines adjacent or near to the HSR lines, where needed. Having an un-necessarily complicated operating paradigm may be impressive from a "wow, no one else does this", stance, but not from an efficiency stance. Other countries are able to move more people, faster, and more cheaply, because of the LACK of complexity. FRA crash standards take into account that an Acela might hit a slow train or a freight train..or a car...which generally won't happen in Europe. That makes the Acela heavy, expensive, and power-hungry. And complexity breeds cost. Just ask the airlines. WN, NK, F9...all single type or single type certification operators. The Acela would be faster, and more competitive and useful, were it not impeded by old signals, catenary, track alignment, and mixed running. Is the NEC an indispensable resource for the functioning of the Northeast Megalopolis? Absolutely. But that doesn't make it an "efficient" system when you define efficiency as the combination of capacity and high overall speeds. The Tokaido Shinkansen has three levels of high-speed service...Kodama, Hikiri, and Nozomi. The Kodama is basically a high-speed NJ Transit train...it stops all the time, whilst the Nozomi is a super express. But, because there's standard equipment and signaling, you can easily travel between both major metro centers, and minor intermediate stops, while keeping a fast and on-time service that plays well between "faster" and "slower" trains. Acela stuck behind an MU set? Oopsie, guess we're taking the scenic route till the next interlocking! The NEC is a *versatile* system. Whether that's the optimal configuration for the NE US is up for debate.

-AC
  by gokeefe
 
With all of the above in mind and my own positions clear I would simply say that I think the chosen design from Alstom is absolutely a winner.

Higher speeds including on curves, better power to weight ratio, innovative new features, and higher passenger capacity. Additionally Amtrak got smart and bought additional trainsets while still keeping train length with the envelope of existing facilities.

If it works this procurement is destined to be seen as one of the smartest acquisitions ever in the history of American passenger rail.

I am confident that somewhere in a dark room the airline planners get sick looking at the capabilities that these new trainsets will give Amtrak in the Northeast.
  by adamj023
 
Airline executives and planners are not worried about Avelia Liberty running the new Alstom train sets. In fact, many commercial airlines themselves are slowing down speeds of jets in the name of economics. The mainstream airlines will be irrelevant if they don’t realize that speed is king as new competitors come out with new aircraft superior to concorde without the sonic boom and can be flown domestically and internationally without issue. The Avelia Liberty doesn’t improve existing infrastructure bottlenecks. Airlines have private and/or commercial jets and business class or first class seating that is super nice and short travel times and those products are extremely competitive and moreso than ever at various levels.

If you looked at Amtrak’s plans, Amtrak is deficient in so many aspects of funding on the North East Corridor. So many necessary projects have not even been funded yet.

I think Northeastern Regional competes much more effectively and is also more widely used than Acela for most. If you are a frequent business traveler, and really need those few minutes you save or you just just have excess funds to burn and demand more than Acela would meet that, but at Acela price points, you probably could do better with aviation.
  by gokeefe
 
adamj023 wrote:The Avelia Liberty doesn’t improve existing infrastructure bottlenecks.
Improved power to weight ratio will enhance reliability and performance on the power distribution network. That is definitely an existing infrastructure bottleneck.

It also fixes what could be described as the biggest bottleneck of all ... Sold out trains ... By adding more seats per trainset.
  by bostontrainguy
 
Avelia.jpg
How about this? It's the new French version of the Avelia but it's bi-level. They appear to be about the same height but don't know. And it's articulated too!
alstom_aveliahorizon_sncf01alstom.jpg
http://railcolornews.com/2018/07/26/fr- ... -for-sncf/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Avelia Horizon will consist of two innovative power cars of reduced length, combining high performance and compactness, and articulated double-deck passenger cars. Their design allows for a 20% increase in passenger-dedicated areas, allowing the train to accommodate up to 740 passengers in the highest-capacity configuration chosen by SNCF."
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Last edited by bostontrainguy on Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
  by electricron
 
bostontrainguy wrote:
Avelia.jpg
How about this? It's the new French version of the Avelia but it's bi-level. They appear to be about the same height but don't know.
alstom_aveliahorizon_sncf01alstom.jpg
http://railcolornews.com/2018/07/26/fr- ... -for-sncf/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ain’t it amazing how much easier it is to have a double level train, even a HSR one, if you’re not limited to having only high level platforms at your train stations! There’s a reason why much of Europe is standarding on lower platform heights.....

The European Union Commission issued a TSI (Technical Specifications for Interoperability) on 30 May 2002 (2002/735/EC) that sets out standard platform heights for passenger steps on high-speed rail. These standard heights are 550 and 760 mm (21.7 and 29.9 in) .
  by gokeefe
 
electricron wrote:Ain’t it amazing how much easier it is to have a double level train, even a HSR one, if you’re not limited to having only high level platforms at your train stations! There’s a reason why much of Europe is standarding on lower platform heights.....
Europe does not prioritize handicapped accessibility in Intercity passenger rail to the same extent that we do in the U.S.

I think we are better off for it. They are still trying to give the East Europeans time to catch up.
  by jamesinclair
 
electricron wrote:
bostontrainguy wrote:
Avelia.jpg
How about this? It's the new French version of the Avelia but it's bi-level. They appear to be about the same height but don't know.
alstom_aveliahorizon_sncf01alstom.jpg
http://railcolornews.com/2018/07/26/fr- ... -for-sncf/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ain’t it amazing how much easier it is to have a double level train, even a HSR one, if you’re not limited to having only high level platforms at your train stations! There’s a reason why much of Europe is standarding on lower platform heights.....

The European Union Commission issued a TSI (Technical Specifications for Interoperability) on 30 May 2002 (2002/735/EC) that sets out standard platform heights for passenger steps on high-speed rail. These standard heights are 550 and 760 mm (21.7 and 29.9 in) .
If NJ Transit can run bi-level trains into NYC on high level platforms, why cant Amtrak?

I think the optimal solution to ADA would be to have a single level cafe car in the middle, and single-level cars on either side of it. This would allow mobility limited customers maximum flexibility (ie, 3 cars at their full disposal). Cars towards the ends of the train could be bi-level.

This is actually superior to using low-level platforms with gangways on the second level (ie, California Car) because those with mobility issues are limited to the car they boarded into.
  by Ridgefielder
 
jamesinclair wrote:
electricron wrote:
bostontrainguy wrote:
Avelia.jpg
How about this? It's the new French version of the Avelia but it's bi-level. They appear to be about the same height but don't know.
alstom_aveliahorizon_sncf01alstom.jpg
http://railcolornews.com/2018/07/26/fr- ... -for-sncf/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ain’t it amazing how much easier it is to have a double level train, even a HSR one, if you’re not limited to having only high level platforms at your train stations! There’s a reason why much of Europe is standarding on lower platform heights.....

The European Union Commission issued a TSI (Technical Specifications for Interoperability) on 30 May 2002 (2002/735/EC) that sets out standard platform heights for passenger steps on high-speed rail. These standard heights are 550 and 760 mm (21.7 and 29.9 in) .
If NJ Transit can run bi-level trains into NYC on high level platforms, why cant Amtrak?

I think the optimal solution to ADA would be to have a single level cafe car in the middle, and single-level cars on either side of it. This would allow mobility limited customers maximum flexibility (ie, 3 cars at their full disposal). Cars towards the ends of the train could be bi-level.

This is actually superior to using low-level platforms with gangways on the second level (ie, California Car) because those with mobility issues are limited to the car they boarded into.
How many times have you ridden an NJT or LIRR bi-level with luggage?
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