Amtrak Expansion Plan

bdawe wrote:Let's put emphasis on the word modern

Modern intercity passenger service of that sort of distance is going to a be a train that goes fast enough that it doesn't substantially resemble the Broadway Limited

You want a fast modern "Broadway Limited"?

Try New York to Buffalo on the upgraded Empire Corridor at 110/125 mph. Non-stop through Canada between Buffalo and Detroit. Detroit to Chicago on the upgraded Wolverine Route at 110 mph.

Fast running almost all the way and no freight congestion south of Lake Erie.

A modern high-speed overnight 21st Century Limited is born.

Mr. Norman: I don't want Amtrak back into the freight business as a primary provider, no. There's no future in trying to steal Class I's business on their own rails. What might work is a limited agreement with a single company (for instance, CSX) to provide haulage for a certain product in a certain train that happens to travel the same route (for instance, a cut of 15-20 Tropicana boxcars on the Silver Meteor.)

Regarding the Broadway, 18 hours in an Amfleet (as Matt Johnson says in another thread) is as much as one would ever want, but in a pinch such a schedule could be... possible:

With regards to hauling the juice train, would such a long train foul the interlockings at Washington, Philadelphia, or elsewhere?

Depends how long the train is but, most likely it would be an annoying work around at best.

mtuandrew wrote:Mr. Norman: I don't want Amtrak back into the freight business as a primary provider, no. There's no future in trying to steal Class I's business on their own rails. What might work is a limited agreement with a single company (for instance, CSX) to provide haulage for a certain product in a certain train that happens to travel the same route (for instance, a cut of 15-20 Tropicana boxcars on the Silver Meteor.)

Regarding the Broadway, 18 hours in an Amfleet (as Matt Johnson says in another thread) is as much as one would ever want, but in a pinch such a schedule could be... possible:

Code: Select all

   BROADWAY LIMITED
    West     East
    (down)   (up)
    550a NYP 1220a
arr 712a PHL 1055p dep
dep 742a PHL 1029p arr
    926a HAR  935p
    259p PGH  400p
    553p CLE 1159a
    808p TOL  958a
   1051p SOB  708a 
  (Eastern/Central)    
   1145p CHI  440a

Looks almost similar to the old Pennsylvanian which means you'd have to give up your entire day to ride the train between NYP/PHL and CHI. Does any train even leave CUS at 4:40am in the morning and would you want to be there at that time? Would you want to arrive into New York from out of town after midnight or into Chicago from out of town just before midnight? Would you really want to spend all day trapped on a train? To me, a useless schedule when it can be scheduled to have some part of it overnight just like the LSL & CL. It doesn't have to have the same portion overnight. To me if you ran a BL on top of the Pennsylvanian, run the portion between PHL and PGH overnight so you can have day service between PGH and CHI.

bdawe wrote:With regards to hauling the juice train, would such a long train foul the interlockings at Washington, Philadelphia, or elsewhere?

It's not that long anymore. I have seen short sets of 5 - 10 cars in manifest freights heading north though Wildwood, FL.

bostontrainguy wrote:

bdawe wrote:With regards to hauling the juice train, would such a long train foul the interlockings at Washington, Philadelphia, or elsewhere?

It's not that long anymore. I have seen short sets of 5 - 10 cars in manifest freights heading north though Wildwood, FL.

Likewise in Alexandria, VA.

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:Looks almost similar to the old Pennsylvanian which means you'd have to give up your entire day to ride the train between NYP/PHL and CHI. Does any train even leave CUS at 4:40am in the morning and would you want to be there at that time? Would you want to arrive into New York from out of town after midnight or into Chicago from out of town just before midnight? Would you really want to spend all day trapped on a train? To me, a useless schedule when it can be scheduled to have some part of it overnight just like the LSL & CL. It doesn't have to have the same portion overnight. To me if you ran a BL on top of the Pennsylvanian, run the portion between PHL and PGH overnight so you can have day service between PGH and CHI.

It’s a thought exercise on how to serve the entire Broadway Limited route a) for the middle markets and b) without offering sleeper accommodations. That said, it really needs to take under sixteen hours for it to be practical as an all-daylight train, not 18-19 hours. (For that matter, the faster all of Amtrak’s trains, the more equipment they free up for new service like a daily Cardinal, a single-level Capital Limited with through cars for the Pennsylvanian, and a Broadway. Can’t wait for the eastern Midwest states to get cracking on the old PRR mainline as a 90/110 mph passenger route.)

mtuandrew wrote: Can’t wait for the eastern Midwest states to get cracking on the old PRR mainline as a 90/110 mph passenger route.)

Has anyone performed a detailed study on what it would take and how much it would cost to upgrade the entire old PRR mainline to 90/110/125 mph? If they have, can someone post a link to it?

The Juice cars typically number no more than 25 and as pointed out there are typically fewer. That said, despite their priority, I'm pretty sure CSX still has some delays getting them north and south. The scheduling logistics for Amtrak seems to be far more cumbersome than any benefit.

Not that this is a big expansion but is there any demand for a Harrisburg-Philadelphia-DC Keystone? It is a roundabout route but think there might be demand for a handful of trains.

electricron wrote:

mtuandrew wrote: Can’t wait for the eastern Midwest states to get cracking on the old PRR mainline as a 90/110 mph passenger route.)

Has anyone performed a detailed study on what it would take and how much it would cost to upgrade the entire old PRR mainline to 90/110/125 mph? If they have, can someone post a link to it?

I haven’t located numbers yet, but check here: http://www.midwesthsr.org/studies" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not sure why I forgot about the maximum freight speeds - 79 mph may be the maximum for most cars without special trucks and couplers. Forget I suggested freight on the NEC as part of scheduled passenger trains!

Maximum speed of freight cars vary with track classification, and their weight.
This link provides information about track classification well.
http://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-of ... ifications" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This link provides better information about freight cars limitations.
http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Railr ... lasses.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I doubt few freight cars used for transporting orange juice are qualified for high speeds.
The only freight cars I’m aware of capable of NEC passenger train speeds are Amtrak’s baggage cars.

bostontrainguy wrote:

bdawe wrote:Let's put emphasis on the word modern

Modern intercity passenger service of that sort of distance is going to a be a train that goes fast enough that it doesn't substantially resemble the Broadway Limited

You want a fast modern "Broadway Limited"?

Try New York to Buffalo on the upgraded Empire Corridor at 110/125 mph. Non-stop through Canada between Buffalo and Detroit. Detroit to Chicago on the upgraded Wolverine Route at 110 mph.

Fast running almost all the way and no freight congestion south of Lake Erie.

A modern high-speed overnight 21st Century Limited is born.

Unless that makes a detour through Philly, Lancaster, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh it won't help us down here much (although I in Philly would just take NJT from Trenton up to Penn Station to a faster 21st Century to get to Chicago, the closer you are to Chicago the more it makes sense to do the same). I will say any progress is still better than the current state of affairs (with the exception of more Byrd Crap which only helps the likes of White Sulphur Springs, WV).

Correct me if I am wrong, but was there a PRIAA recommendation that the Southwest Chief have a car or two to carry palletized shipments? With ecommerce being the big thing, One would think that a M&E service on the NEC would be tailor made for some of this business. Use a Regional that operates on a local schedule to function as such a train like what was done in the '80s. Maybe you could set aside a coach or two to sell low priced tickets aimed at the cut rate bus competition