New equipment technology

ROS is right on the money. The outside vendor, Masabi, gave a presentation to the LIRR recently. From the few that attended that I spoke with are saying this is going to be a big milestone. Probably comparable to when the Ticket Vending Machines were debuted. I see this impacting Ticket Agents and technology quickly adopted by the riding public.

I know there is a belief out there that technology is this great savior , does anyone truly believe that monies saved by the MTA on revenue collection will actually result in lower fares for the customers. I am an employee , so I am obviously biased, but I do not believe these tech initiatives will lower anyone's fare by one cent.

I think it's also possible that the MTA will greatly overpay to deliver on these initiatives and you know who will pay the freight on that.

Slippy, you said earlier that the MTA might want to eventually go completely cashless. Are you saying that at some point in the future, a passenger might not be able to buy a ticket using United States Currency aka cash? I think that would be a mistake on their part as there will probably always be a percentage of passengers who pay using cash even in this modern era of credit/debit cards and smart-phone apps.

To quote Slippy: "...the MTA might want to eventually go completely cashless...." I'll concur that it "might want" and perhaps go cashless with the following business examples and an opinion at the bottom: He sure is correct.

1. Enterprise Rental Cars will not except cash where I live in Tampa area
2. A number of toll roads around Tampa eliminated cash; SunPass or the license plate(tag) is photoed and a bill sent to home
3. Lease/rents not accepted in cash
4. Withdrawal/deposit of large amounts of cash flagged by the banks; per Federal mandate.
5. IRS increasing need to declare gifts of cash Form 709
6. Many business carry little "cash on hand" to refund money on a return purchase. You must wait 2 business days for a check refund in mail
7. Utilities, realtors, insurance companies, and other "service companies" no longer except cash payments
8. You can no longer purchase US savings bonds via cash at the local bank, go on-line
9. Employers now direct deposit payroll only
10. IRS requires a checking account for Social Security

Opinion: There's a major movement to use smart phone swipe apps and other non-cash transactions. Many reasons: less overhead/increase profit, track activity, discourage illegal activities, etc. It certainly eliminates jobs/accounting problems/fraud...and adds to further Government intervention and control of our daily lives.

Nyandw, many of the examples you provided involve large amounts of money and are not comparable to buying a train ticket which (with the exception of weekly and monthly tickets) usually involve much smaller amounts of money. So for buying a train ticket, hopefully cash will remain an option for the forseable future.

Head-end View wrote:Nyandw, many of the examples you provided involve large amounts of money and are not comparable to buying a train ticket which (with the exception of weekly and monthly tickets) usually involve much smaller amounts of money. So for buying a train ticket, hopefully cash will remain an option for the forseable future.

Very very true, but I just was indicating the overall macro trend as it will also impact the micro at the daily level. I agree, for the foreseeable future, but it appears the long view is to eliminate cash, for a variety of reasons, and just wanted to agree with Slippy. The use of SunPass in Florida and EasyPass in New York is the current example.

I'll exit this thread as it really doesn't apply to New equipment technology

There is a segment of the population that thinks Public transportation should be totally funded by taxes, and the ride itself should be without further cost. An example would be the galveston ferry in texas. I have a friend that works there, makes 40,000 a year with Medical and dental. The rent is 650 a month a block from the beach, with free wi-fi and cable. Now 40,000 will not go to far in NY, but in galveston its a pretty good salary. One of these days a ride with no fare could happen. Not beyond the realm of possibility. Think how much they could save with no collectors, Just a Conductor, no Machines or ticket agents to pay for, no people to fix the machines etc... one supervisor told me once the costs outweigh the losses, this will happen.

Engine,

And I repeat , does anyone honestly believe fares would go down if tech is able to massively reduce the workforce ?

Steve, while I agree with your overall premise, there are a few obvious errors in your examples:

1. Enterprise Rental Cars and other businesses are private enterprises. With some exceptions, they can set terms for payment. This is a government agency. Go to a public IRS office, and they are required to take payments in cash.
2. Toll roads are operated by authorities in most cases, i.e. quasi-governmental. Passengers on a railroad do not have license plates to be read. You could take a picture of a driver's license, but this would not nearly be as simple as a tag reader.
4. As someone else noted, not really applicable; a ticket for carriage on a railroad is not going to approach the $10k Bank Secrecy Act reporting threshold LOL.
5. Again, IRS gifts of cash threshold for reporting (it's about 13 or 14k before you file a gift tax return) is NA.
7. I can go to my local utility office (Georgia Power) and pay with cash. Saying utilities, etc. don't accept cash is a blanket statement that's not true.
9. Employers pay in cash all the time. I know some restaurant employees who are paid by check, and immediately cash the check AT THE RESTAURANT. Same diff.
10. "IRS requires a checking account for Social Security". They have nothing to do with each other, they are entirely separate agencies. Why would IRS require a checking account for another government agency's payments? He!!, IRS will still mail paper refund checks. That's just silly.

All due respect for you railroad knowledge, Steve! Stick to what you know!

rdl1972 wrote:Engine,

And I repeat , does anyone honestly believe fares would go down if tech is able to massively reduce the workforce ?

Fares will never go lower. Passenger railroads operate at a loss (even the NEC when you figure in capital expenditures, or privates would be lining up for a piece of the action) and require subsidies. Any savings just goes to lowering the subsidy. It doesn't mean you shouldn't cut expenses and increase efficiency.

Interestingly, the old PRR operated the Northeast Corridor (the portion they owned, which was NYP to Washington) at a profit in the '50s and '60s. perhaps the only long-distance passenger line in America that made a profit under private ownership. But that was before all the capital improvements and upgrades. The 1933 electrification was fully depreciated by then and the trains often ran with P70 coaches, which were also fully depreciated.

Even government at times looks to economize by cutting costs. Railroads are very slow to embrace new technology, but when they do, it's usually well tested and proven before its implementation. Hence the resistance to Positive Train Control: the technology isn't reliable or proven.

Fare collection automation will eventually cut the railroad labor force. With costs rising and the lack of income growth among riders, only through correcting inefficiencies can some affordability be retained. Many riders are also using borrowed money to fund their commute. They require access to credit card ticketing. Handling cash is costly and dangerous.

Vast improvements have been made in safety systems and automation. The safety sensitive nature and operating responsibility of train crews continues to be reduced. As the public views crews more and more as merely revenue-handlers in a deficit-riddled dinosaur there will be greater pressure to further economize.

I agree with the underlying points by K&K. I'd parse some of the words: I'd say PTC isn't proven reliable yet, rather than reliable or proven. But that's splitting hairs. I wonder if there's data out there that shows PTC "applications", i.e. had PTC been in place for the two most recent incidents on Amtrak and MNRR, and the systems worked as designed. I would imagine that the PTC applications would thus be reported to the RTC who'd have to file an incident report, etc., etc. Then we could actually see the tangible benefits of the system, by noting the number of penalty applications.

As for reducing the work force, I'm not sure the unions will go along. Look at the "L" Canarsie train. Full CBTC, automated, and NYCT was not able to eliminate the conductor. I'm not casting judgment on that result, or the need for the conductor. I'm just saying the union fought it and won. Flip side; find me a manned MNRR station these days. As the agents retire, the stations close (or at least the windows do).

If MTA/LIRR/M-N seriously wants to reduce staffing costs, the most likely mechanism would be to go to a proof-of-payment (POP) system. I've seen a commuter railroad that operates this way, Caltrain which connects San Francisco to San Jose, Calif. A train of six bi-level cars operates with an engineer and one conductor who basically controls the doors. However, if you get caught by the transit police during a periodic check of fares, there is a summons and a fine.

At least this way the railroad still gets a reasonable amount of fare revenue without the crew costs. And again, I think this would be the most likely way the MTA would go, if it gets to this point.

But an interesting question was raised in an above post. What percentage of the fares collected are needed just to support the fare system? Ticket printing, vending machines etc.

Jeff Smith wrote:Steve, while I agree with your overall premise, there are a few obvious errors in your examples: All due respect for you railroad knowledge, Steve! Stick to what you know!

You're correct and I exited the thread.