The future of the SEPTA fleet

I think that septa is planning on keeping at least some of the bombers.

TrainPhotos wrote:I believe the comet 2 cars were overhauled at some point, giving them the interior mounted info boards viewable from the platform. Perhaps that will be done to the SEPTA fleet? Cab end info boards could probably be installed as well. Is this possible/practical? Will they simply replace the push pull equipment currently in operation with MLV-ACS64 as numbers allow? Would be kind of cool from a passenger/layperson's perspective to have an actual and substantial fleet expansion, and not just a one to one replacement. Then all you'd need is more crews and maybe get around to my pet cause, the half hour intervals...

It can be done, but unless they're planning to segregate fleets they might as well just replace all 10 cab cars, weight the MLV order accordingly to heavier % of cabs, and just keep the best-of-the-rest trailer flats. You would at least be able to get the more modern ASA audio pumped into the flats and more cheaply upgrade the info boards that way if every push-pull had an MLV cab. Instead of having to spend a bit more money installing the new ASA computers in the old cabs. As well as upgrading every single one of the old cabs with ACSES PTC if any of them currently lack it.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:Yes. MARC mixes everything with everything, and those are verbatim NJT-spec cars siphoned off the NJT option orders.

Not quite verbatim. The door controls on the MARC MLV's are the standard kind, with trainline open and close buttons only, not the NJT boards with the open high, open low, and close buttons (on the MARC cars, the trap position tells the door systems whether to open all doors or just the end doors only).
Also, there are some minor cosmetic detail differences. Unlike the NJT MLV's, the MARC cars do NOT have luggage racks in the upper or end sections, and they DO have electrical outlets under all seats in the upper and lower sections. The MARC cars do not have the little hooks on the backs of the seats to hang jackets or coats on, either.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:I somewhat doubt SEPTA's going to want to keep its flats when the order is finished. The new cars will come with ASA destination/information displays both inside and out as well as other associated automation, which the flats obviously won't have at all except for being able to repeat the audio announcements. And if they're anything like the MBTA's ASA that their Rotem bi-levels have and their Kawasaki bi-levels are being retrofitted with during midlife overhaul, the ASA computer will live in the cab car and thus you must have a bi-level cab car for the displays and annoucements in any of the trailers to work. Throw in the fact that the old stuff is really worn out and I doubt the upside is their for keeping a remainder fleet--especially one that small--vs. just getting the cleanrooming over with. Even the T's fleet plan calls for purging all 200 of its remaining flats in another 5 years if it can scrape together the money for such a huge procurement, just for sake of getting it over with and having a completely uniform fleet they no longer have to keep in balance on the per-consist mixture. So are Metro North and NJT with their even more aggressive 2018-2025 fleet plans to purge their huge numbers of flats. And MARC (34 remaining MARC IIB single-levels after this MLV order is done) and AMT (24 Comet II's) aren't going to take more than 3-5 years to dip in for more supplemental orders to scrape off their last tiny remainders of flats. Given the way it's trending across every current user of flats...just get the transition over with as quickly and cleanly as possible and don't over-complicate by hanging on to the old stuff for too long.

The SEPTA single-levels are bound to hang around for a while, since 22 of them are going through overhaul, with 3 already done in-house, so that's at least another 10 years we are likely to see them running here after completion. Especially since they have 13 locomotives on order.... that is way more locomotives than 45 MLV's would be needed for, especially if grouped i 6-car trains. Besides, the coaches are actually still in quite good shape; it's the AEM-7's that are ready to fall apart. Most of the SEPTA Bomber failures here have all been locomotive-related in the last 7 to 10 years.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:As well as upgrading every single one of the old cabs with ACSES PTC if any of them currently lack it.

That is actually ongoing now and will be completed before the end of this year, as the Bomber cabs will need them by then, anyway.

Overhead luggage racks will be a must if they eliminate 3 seat benches. Nobody will have a spot to place their briefcase in the middle seat to block fellow passengers from sitting down.

On a more serious note, where do you store an extra 45 coaches? Do they have extra storage capacity in the yards?

I know Chestnut Hill East Yard and Fox Chase yard are empty at night, but is that a result of noise complaints? Trenton floods, so that's not feasible.

Is there a location that can be expanded or has extra storage capacity? The right of way north of Warminster is wide and has cat poles past Street Road. The right of way at Lansdale still exists next to the former inbound Bethlehem Line between the station and Cannon Avenue, but the switch is gone north of the station, and it needs catenary / new track.

NorthPennLimited wrote:On a more serious note, where do you store an extra 45 coaches? Do they have extra storage capacity in the yards?

I know Chestnut Hill East Yard and Fox Chase yard are empty at night, but is that a result of noise complaints? Trenton floods, so that's not feasible.

Is there a location that can be expanded or has extra storage capacity? The right of way north of Warminster is wide and has cat poles past Street Road. The right of way at Lansdale still exists next to the former inbound Bethlehem Line between the station and Cannon Avenue, but the switch is gone north of the station, and it needs catenary / new track.

Is Powelton packed to capacity? Every time I am down there it seems pretty full, but I don't recall ever hearing that for sure.

NorthPennLimited wrote:Trenton floods, so that's not feasible.

There are plans to rebuild the old Barracks Yard in Hamilton. That's north of Trenton and isn't prone to floods like Trenton.

Yes, no trains at Chestnut Hill East overnight as a concession to residents against noise and vandalism.

Fox Chase does not have a yard.

Powelton and Roberts... along with all the outlying yards... are indeed full overnight.

If there was more yard space available, it would also eliminate the need to store trains at Fern Rock and on shop track space at Wayne Electric as well during the day.

The track north of Street Road is owned by New Hope & Ivyland, and no room to build a yard on that side, anyway, without land acquisition.

Rebuilding Barracks Yard would at least save SEPTA several deadhead moves and open up a few slots in Powelton and Suburban Station. The same would go for West Yard south of Wilmington if Amtrak was willing to give up the space.....

There is one yard with anything like slack capacity: the push-pulls' home base at Frazer. There is also available land to expand that yard.

The other storage yards are full (or embargoed for now, in the case of CHE). The Lenni Yard proposed as part of the Wawa extension is just a slot-in replacement for Media Yard, which would be replaced by a parking expansion. (Why it wouldn't be sold to developers, I don't know, but that is a reversible error.) Barracks Yard and/or West Yard are a must if the EMU fleet is to be expanded with the Silverliner VI order.

My understanding is that Amtrak has been willing to part with the land at West Yard for quite some time, as long as someone writes them a check for it. SEPTA sees writing that check as DelDOT's responsibility. DelDOT does not allocate enough funds to transit to make that investment. So it goes.

Why can't cars be stored at CHE/CHW with pans down?
Since Warminster also has a crew base, and there is some spare track north of Street Road, why not make a minor investment and pay NHIRR to store a set or two of cars there?

bikentransit wrote:Why can't cars be stored at CHE/CHW with pans down?
Since Warminster also has a crew base, and there is some spare track north of Street Road, why not make a minor investment and pay NHIRR to store a set or two of cars there?

NHIRR has customers on the sidings up there, so it's going to be a no-go anyway. Right now, the way equipment cycles, only two rush-hour trains and the last train of the night tie up there; everything else runs back down in revenue service.

CHW only has the station tracks, so at best, 8 cars is all you'll get there, or the last two trains of the night yarding there. Plus, being on a hill, I suspect SEPTA doesn't want to tempt fate. Air can bleed off the brake cylinders with the pans down, and all it takes are released handbrakes. Same goes for CHE with the topography. I won't get into other perceived issues involving vandalism or security; those are issues the neighborhoods brought up. But from a crew standpoint, it saves SEPTA the cost of having to have those locations as additional crew sign-up locations with the appropriate amenities, storage, and supplies that would be needed.

The last I heard, SEPTA wanted to replace the 231 Silverliner IV's with 245 Silverliner VI's. It's already been decided that no matter what, the future VI's are to be fully operationally compatible with the Silverliner V's. So that's an additional 14 MU's coming in. 45 MLV push-pull cars would be equal to the 45 Bombers on hand now.... so assuming the entire current fleet bites the bullet when the multis arrive, they only have to find storage space for an additional 14 cars. The additional track they will gain in yard space at West Trenton after the CSX separation, combined with a future Barracks Yard will more than take care of that.

If the Septa Bombardier fleet is rebuilt, can the cab cars be rebuilt as functional can cars or must they be converted to trailers? When the NJT Comet II fleet was rebuilt, all the cab cars were converted to trailers. If SEPTA follows suit, that will mean train sets of single level Bombardier coaches with an MLV cab.

Silverliner II wrote:

bikentransit wrote:Why can't cars be stored at CHE/CHW with pans down?
Since Warminster also has a crew base, and there is some spare track north of Street Road, why not make a minor investment and pay NHIRR to store a set or two of cars there?

NHIRR has customers on the sidings up there, so it's going to be a no-go anyway. Right now, the way equipment cycles, only two rush-hour trains and the last train of the night tie up there; everything else runs back down in revenue service.

CHW only has the station tracks, so at best, 8 cars is all you'll get there, or the last two trains of the night yarding there. Plus, being on a hill, I suspect SEPTA doesn't want to tempt fate. Air can bleed off the brake cylinders with the pans down, and all it takes are released handbrakes. Same goes for CHE with the topography. I won't get into other perceived issues involving vandalism or security; those are issues the neighborhoods brought up. But from a crew standpoint, it saves SEPTA the cost of having to have those locations as additional crew sign-up locations with the appropriate amenities, storage, and supplies that would be needed.

The last I heard, SEPTA wanted to replace the 231 Silverliner IV's with 245 Silverliner VI's. It's already been decided that no matter what, the future VI's are to be fully operationally compatible with the Silverliner V's. So that's an additional 14 MU's coming in. 45 MLV push-pull cars would be equal to the 45 Bombers on hand now.... so assuming the entire current fleet bites the bullet when the multis arrive, they only have to find storage space for an additional 14 cars. The additional track they will gain in yard space at West Trenton after the CSX separation, combined with a future Barracks Yard will more than take care of that.

I don't think bilevel coaches would be replacing the bombers. It says in the capital budget that bilevel coaches would be an addition to the fleet while ACS 64s would be both an addition and a replacement for the AEM7s.

found out that SEPTA is buying 55 multilevels
http://septa.org/rebuilding/vehicles/bi-level.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In order to accommodate ridership growth on the Regional Railroad, SEPTA will purchase (up to 55) multi-level passenger railcars. These new cars, together with the new electric locomotives, will provide additional capacity to accommodate our increasing ridership. The multi-level cars will look similar to those used by MARC between Washington and Baltimore and New Jersey Transit.

CComMack wrote:There is one yard with anything like slack capacity: the push-pulls' home base at Frazer. There is also available land to expand that yard.

I have a feeling that we are going to be seeing all the Bryn Mawr (or any PRR-side) expresses currently running as MUs converted to single level PPs turning at Suburban. I also suspect that Barracks Yard will be under SEPTA control eventually. Yard space is desperately needed in Trenton and will drastically cut down on non-revenue mileage. Same with space in Delaware.

Also, is it possible to restore the second track and wire back to Cynwyd and place a long siding there?

R3 Passenger wrote: Also, is it possible to restore the second track and wire back to Cynwyd and place a long siding there?

restoring the second track all the way to norristown is possible, it's just not probable

there's nothing physically stopping putting the second track in to cynwyd, or ivy ridge, or conshohocken, but i suspect there would be resistance from the same clowns wh think the whole line should go in favor of a bike trail.