Northeast Regional 188 - Accident In Philadelphia

justalurker66 wrote:

ekt8750 wrote:Sounds like had SEPTA 769 been on time without incident it would have been wiped out by 188 this would have been a much bigger disaster.

Wasn't 769 ahead of 188 before it was delayed?

Septa 769 is scheduled to leave 30th St at 9:00 - North Philadelphia at 9:10. At 9:28 it should have been at Eddington.
Amtrak 188 is scheduled to leave 30th St at 9:10.

No way of knowing if 769 was on time or not, however... and 188 WAS on time departing 30th Street.

Zeke wrote:Tonight while perusing the Yard Limits.com Amtrak forum found a interesting Washington Post article dated May 15, by author Lydia De Pillis. The title, " Was the engineer on Amtrak 188 too tired to drive? " underneath it " Labor union says engineer of train was likely fatigued because of Amtrak's cost-driven schedule changes." Gist of article claims Amtrak cranking up the usage of short turnarounds and possibly ? compromising safety. Perhaps one of you more literate computer whizzes could retrieve the article and post it here on this thread. Found the article quite illuminating in exposing the "turn up the wick" mentality at Amtrak and it's potential link to this accident.

Thank you for posting this as I personally feel this is the "800 pound gorilla in the room" nobody wants or is willing to talk about. It's almost as if exhaustion is a taboo subject on the railroad. I would like an engineer to comment on this...

Zeke wrote:Tonight while perusing the Yard Limits.com Amtrak forum found a interesting Washington Post article dated May 15, by author Lydia De Pillis. The title, " Was the engineer on Amtrak 188 too tired to drive? " underneath it " Labor union says engineer of train was likely fatigued because of Amtrak's cost-driven schedule changes." Gist of article claims Amtrak cranking up the usage of short turnarounds and possibly ? compromising safety. Perhaps one of you more literate computer whizzes could retrieve the article and post it here on this thread. Found the article quite illuminating in exposing the "turn up the wick" mentality at Amtrak and it's potential link to this accident.

[quote="On May 15 In an article entitled "Was the engineer on Amtrak 188 too tired to drive?", Lydia DePillis of the Washington Post staff"]

Was the engineer on Amtrak 188 too tired to drive?

Investigators trying to determine the cause of Tuesday's deadly Amtrak crash have still yet to speak in depth with Brandon Bostian, the engineer who was piloting the train as it sped up to 106 miles per hour around a sharp curve. But the union representing those engineers say that recently-implemented schedule changes might have left him in a fatigued state that could have lessened his concentration.

On March 23, engineers on the Northeast corridor got new schedules that left them either with very short turnarounds between runs, or with very long breaks that extended the periods of time they spent away from home, according to the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen. The changes, which the union says Amtrak told them were necessary to achieve cost savings, also created more variability and unpredictability. That can be hard on an engineer's internal clock.

"We feel 100 percent confident that the issue of the new schedule, the reduced rest period and layover period for this young man, was an immediate and direct contribution to this incident," Fritz Edler, chair of the local committee of adjustment for the BLET's Division 482, said in an interview Friday. "Fatigue is a cumulative problem. So if you have a bad day yesterday, it’s going to be that much harder to do your job today. And that’s the kind of situation [Bostian] was up against."

Amtrak did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

The trainmens' union has been warning for months that the proposed changes could have adverse impacts. In September, they sent a letter to Amtrak's superintendent of operations warning that attempts to save money through asking engineers to work more shifts with shorter breaks could put them in danger. In November, Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-D.C.) followed up with a letter urging Amtrak not to go forward with the new schedules.[/quote]

Read the rest at The Washington Post's web site

Great article by BLET their striving to get more members (more dues) but by lowering the income of Engineers.
this Engineer did not have a strenuous schedule, someone earlier posted the schedule.
and Despite the BLET claiming fatigue in engineers own words to NTSB he claimed to have been well rested and not fatigued at all , so who do you believe.

Working for Amtrak and running between NYP and WASH can be a real grind. Many of the NY based engineers live in NJ or Long Island and this requires deadheading into PSTA and that soaks up a two to four hour deadhead coming and going and not unusual to burn off 15-16 hour days by the time you walk out your front door and return home. Running a high speed train rapt attention must be paid to it and that takes a great deal of concentration. Particularly in inclement weather ( snow, sleet, fog, heavy rain) when visibility can be reduced to a few feet at 125 mph and the train is covering a mile every 28.5 seconds. Speed restrictions come up fast and then the schedule pressure from operations, who call on the radio and want to know where you lost a minute of time. It is a high pressure business and a no excuses business as your job and life are in the balance the moment you climb on the motor. In some individuals the cumulative effects of many years in this environment can produce a wide range of physical and perhaps mental health conditions.

I went over to NJT in 1994 from Amtrak engine service as NJT had a ton of terminals in NJ close to home and the management was very good. I have some idea of Amtraks inner workings as NJT runs over the NEC and they interact with Amtrak Dispatching and occasionally their bosses. The speed limit in some parts of the NEC are now 135 mph and 150. There are many places to save money on any railroad but to shorten engineers rest time between runs to save a few bucks can only result in more disasters related to fatigue. The root problem IMHO is engineers make good money and the people in charge cant stand to see a high dollar hourly employee unwinding for three hours in Wash between runs. Three hours should be the mandatory minimum rest period on layover on the NEC. This can result in a leisurely lunch followed by a short power nap then its time to put the head back in the game. To those who think this is feather bedding I suggest they sit in the hot seat and run one of these missiles packed with people operating in a fog bank or blizzard or northeaster for two and a half hours. When they climb off in DC and after a 40 minute break they can hustle over to their NY bound train and do it again for another two and a half hour fun ride. Believe me they will be looking to bid another job after a month of grinding it out on that pounder. Amtrak is a safe railroad and the Amtrak engineers are worth every penny they get paid however Amtrak is going down the wrong path lowering the swing time between runs.

Silverliner II wrote:

justalurker66 wrote:

ekt8750 wrote:Sounds like had SEPTA 769 been on time without incident it would have been wiped out by 188 this would have been a much bigger disaster.

Wasn't 769 ahead of 188 before it was delayed?

Septa 769 is scheduled to leave 30th St at 9:00 - North Philadelphia at 9:10. At 9:28 it should have been at Eddington.
Amtrak 188 is scheduled to leave 30th St at 9:10.

No way of knowing if 769 was on time or not, however... and 188 WAS on time departing 30th Street.

The hypothetical was "had SEPTA 769 been on time" ... not "had SEPTA 769 been running late enough to be following 188 through the curve".

Won't increasing the layover between runs reduce the time the engineers can spend at home in bed at night?

airman wrote above:
[[ This is why we NEED to change the hours of service rules from 12 hours down to 8. ]]

Never gonna happen.

You couldn't do a round trip from NYPenn to DC, or from NYPenn to Boston, in 8 hours.

Many through freight crews still outlaw even with 12 hours on duty.

I've had New Haven to Penn jobs that needed more than 8 hours (such the overnight run to Penn that returns on 66).

If you want to change crews on EVERY train (including Acelas) at New Haven and at Philadelphia, maybe then you could have 8 hour runs on the Corridor.

Short of doing that, it's impossible.

Fishrrman wrote:airman wrote above:
[[ This is why we NEED to change the hours of service rules from 12 hours down to 8. ]]

Never gonna happen.

You couldn't do a round trip from NYPenn to DC, or from NYPenn to Boston, in 8 hours.

Many through freight crews still outlaw even with 12 hours on duty.

I've had New Haven to Penn jobs that needed more than 8 hours (such the overnight run to Penn that returns on 66).

If you want to change crews on EVERY train (including Acelas) at New Haven and at Philadelphia, maybe then you could have 8 hour runs on the Corridor.

Short of doing that, it's impossible.

That may be an idea, even with staying with 12 hour limits. Rather than increase the dwell time, decrease the running time per trip. But then, a Engineer would have to do 2 round trips per day.

Might as well just go for two qualified to run people in the cab ... one runs to Philly, the other runs to DC, then the first returns to Philly and the second finishes the run to NYC. The non-running person could be relieved of duty as long as PTC was operable. Shorter HOS or longer guaranteed rests will just lead to more people anyways. Might as well have both people on the train. And have that second engineer available in cases of PTC failures.

(The engineers could also operate one way and deadhead the other.)

They tell you when you are driving a car to take frequent breaks, like every hour or two. The lifeguards at the local pool, operating under Red Cross rules, swap chairs every 15 minutes and take very frequent breaks. Driving a locomotive is probably less stressful than being a lifeguard, but there's something to think about.

justalurker66 wrote:

Silverliner II wrote:

justalurker66 wrote:

ekt8750 wrote:Sounds like had SEPTA 769 been on time without incident it would have been wiped out by 188 this would have been a much bigger disaster.

Wasn't 769 ahead of 188 before it was delayed?

Septa 769 is scheduled to leave 30th St at 9:00 - North Philadelphia at 9:10. At 9:28 it should have been at Eddington.
Amtrak 188 is scheduled to leave 30th St at 9:10.

No way of knowing if 769 was on time or not, however... and 188 WAS on time departing 30th Street.

The hypothetical was "had SEPTA 769 been on time" ... not "had SEPTA 769 been running late enough to be following 188 through the curve".

However, I am glad (as all of us will agree) that we did not have to find out the answer to that question.

I've heard of NY based Amtrak engineers that live in PA. That's got to be a stressful commute. However, the engineer on 188 i believe lived and worked in the city.

Though, what can the company really do. I'm sure many of the Amtrak engineers could indeed more or less afford to live in the city, but choose not to. A 4 day (4/10) workweek, such as 4 on/2 off with rolling start times might be an answer, then again.. i'm sure many of the engineers would object to it, as it would equal less pay.

The engineer Brandon Bostian reportedly lived in Forest Hills Queens and commuted on the LIRR. It's a 16-17 minute ride to Penn Station. His reporting time on the day of the accident was supposed to be 1:20 PM at Penn Station. The weekday westbound schedule at Forest Hills is hourly at midday meaning he would have had to take the 12:19 PM LIRR train out of Forest Hills to get to Penn Station before 1:20 PM.

It was also mentioned that the NTSB investigation is unlikely to produce anything that is not already known. I think the one surprise might be that it would be discovered Bostian had some underlying medical condition that, unknown to the engineer, might have put him at some risk. That was what happened in the investigation of the engineer in the Spuyten Duyvil wreck when the NTSB had him tested by doctors and discovered he suffered a pretty serious case of sleep apnea. The engineer had not been aware of that.

Zeke wrote:Working for Amtrak and running between NYP and WASH can be a real grind. Many of the NY based engineers live in NJ or Long Island and this requires deadheading into PSTA and that soaks up a two to four hour deadhead coming and going and not unusual to burn off 15-16 hour days by the time you walk out your front door and return home. Running a high speed train rapt attention must be paid to it and that takes a great deal of concentration. Particularly in inclement weather ( snow, sleet, fog, heavy rain) when visibility can be reduced to a few feet at 125 mph and the train is covering a mile every 28.5 seconds. Speed restrictions come up fast and then the schedule pressure from operations, who call on the radio and want to know where you lost a minute of time. It is a high pressure business and a no excuses business as your job and life are in the balance the moment you climb on the motor. In some individuals the cumulative effects of many years in this environment can produce a wide range of physical and perhaps mental health conditions.

I went over to NJT in 1994 from Amtrak engine service as NJT had a ton of terminals in NJ close to home and the management was very good. I have some idea of Amtraks inner workings as NJT runs over the NEC and they interact with Amtrak Dispatching and occasionally their bosses. The speed limit in some parts of the NEC are now 135 mph and 150. There are many places to save money on any railroad but to shorten engineers rest time between runs to save a few bucks can only result in more disasters related to fatigue. The root problem IMHO is engineers make good money and the people in charge cant stand to see a high dollar hourly employee unwinding for three hours in Wash between runs. Three hours should be the mandatory minimum rest period on layover on the NEC. This can result in a leisurely lunch followed by a short power nap then its time to put the head back in the game. To those who think this is feather bedding I suggest they sit in the hot seat and run one of these missiles packed with people operating in a fog bank or blizzard or northeaster for two and a half hours. When they climb off in DC and after a 40 minute break they can hustle over to their NY bound train and do it again for another two and a half hour fun ride. Believe me they will be looking to bid another job after a month of grinding it out on that pounder. Amtrak is a safe railroad and the Amtrak engineers are worth every penny they get paid however Amtrak is going down the wrong path lowering the swing time between runs.

This I fully agree with. It needed to be said again and again. The passenger railroads often treat their engineers as if they were just like locomotives and cars and run the wheels off them. I was with Metro-North for a few years before I returned to Conrail and the mentality was just let the engineer turn with the equipment, never mind that he/she need to use the rest room or never give them time to get a coffee etc. The allmightydollar was and probably still comes number one with most. Rest is a huge issue4 with railroaders everywhere and I mean EVERYWHERE. I worked with conductors who wanted to cut time to get out sooner but I wanted my rest whether it was at home or in my away from home terminal. Some of them didn't like me because I woul not play games with the hours of service law. I am sure it is the same with Amtrak and Metro-North as well. ACRE the union that represents Metro-North gave up the right to stay in a company provided hotel room in New York a few years ago for a pay increase but that meant staying in a rat infested facility in Grand Central Terminal under all sorts of noisy conditions rather than in a private room in a nearby hotel. Conrail saw the light and provided a room at the yard office for crews that were called and their trains were a way away for them to go and stretch out, they saw the light back then (over 17 years ago) meantime the commuter railroads still are not getting it. Engineers are not made of iron although some may not agree on this, I always felt better and I probably did a better job as well when I was fully rested before going out on a job. BOY! am I glad I don't have to deal with this stuff anymore, retirement is fine with me.
Noel Weaver