• Silver Star Downgrade and Diner Discussion

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by Amtk30
 
peconicstation wrote:I thought that maybe Amtrak was going to offer something more than a standard cafe car and it's menu.

In the earlier days of Amfleet, some longer distance trains lost a full diner, and had a "Amdinette" instead.
This service was listed as "tray meals" with table service for dinner and breakfast.

The Montrealler was once sych train.

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0029" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ken
I totally agree. It would be beneficial to the passenger as well as the bottom-line to provide something above the standard cafe menu.

Regarding the Montrealer tray meal service, I can concur that Amtrak did initially offer some unique items (such as quiche) at the time (late 1970s), as well as the le Pub lounge car.

One more item, I do not believe meals were offered with Slumbercoach services. At least not when Slumbercoaches were on #40-41. Could have been before meals were included with standard sleepers.

Amtk30
  by CarterB
 
Slumbercoaches did not offer meals as part of ticket. I rode them many times NY-Chi and PHL-Charleston, SC.
  by Tadman
 
David Benton wrote: The Silver Star is the only train with an alternative service, that been the Meteor. I guess at a pinch you could say the Capitol and LSL are alternatives for each other.
However, in this case they have created a clear choice. If people flock to the Meteor, then obviously the Diner is important. If people flock to the star, then perhaps lower fares are more important.
My thoughts exactly, and this is why the experiment is so interesting to me. They can control for more variables when a parallel train runs the same basic route. This is really smart and shows that the railroad is looking to manage expenses by the business case rather than giving everything a haircut. Despite certain issues I have with the railroad, I think the current Amtrak administration is the best they've had in a long time because of initiatives like this experiment.

It makes a statement - something like "we're not going to run up the surrender flag and act like a moribund government ward, we're going to take a lot of concrete steps and make a true difference".

If I were an employee, I'd be thrilled to be a part of this.
  by Arlington
 
I started a conversation in the Cardinal thread on how the Cardinal and Star are alike (and decent markets for diner downgrades), and supplied pictures, which I am posting them here because they do a good job of showing (1) how powerful the Meteor is as the ideal long-haul, one-night, sleeper train (in some ways, the Auto Train without the Autos) and (2) the Star's strength is in shorter markets, and weakness as a "whole way" train.

NARP doesn't have a bar chart for the Auto Train, or it'd go here. If it did have a bar, it would be 60% blue (130k people in coach) and 40% orange (114k people in sleeper). Without sleepers and diners, the Auto Train would not exist. And the average trip (indeed all trips) are 861 miles.

SILVER METEOR
Note the big orange boxes showing the strength of NY-Orlando and NY-Miami in ridership (and given higher fares, even moreseo in $). The sleepers get stronger (the orange boxes get bigger) as the trips get longer. The Meteor's diner is highly defensible as being necessary to capture those big sleeper markets. The average sleeper trip on the Meteor is 932 miles...about 70 miles longer than the Auto Train and about 67% of the whole length of the Meteor (1389 miles)
Image

So that's what trains look like when sleeper-diner combos are essential.

SILVER STAR
Note how "short-heavy" the bar chart is, and that the sleepers don't get stronger as the trips get longer. The Star's diner is least defensible because the long-haul people that it supposedly is essential for are just not a big enough share of its business (or can ride the Meteor). The average sleeper trip on the Star is 845 miles...SHORTER than the Auto Train...and on a train that is 1480 miles long (so only 57% of the whole train's trip)
Image
  by ExCon90
 
Just for the record, two points should be clarified:
1. The advertised meal service is in no way equivalent to that provided in the pre-Amtrak diner-lounge cars of the EL, NYC, and ATSF discussed in some of the posts above (and Wabash--I had lunch back in 1967 on the Cannonball from Decatur to Fort Wayne and it was exactly what would have been available in a full diner).
2. The UK trains referred to above leave London well after dinnertime and arrive at destination by breakfast time--in fact, the journeys are short enough that the trains are scheduled to run at no more than 50 or 60 mph so that there are practically no restrictive curves en route requiring applications of the brakes in the middle of the night. They do not span any customary mealtimes.
  by electricron
 
One point that I would like to point out that is apparent on both bar charts is the drop off in passenger share over 300 miles, keeping in mind this is a slow train. Which is a major reason why most pundits will suggest rail travel is the most competitive with other modes to travel at distances less than 300 miles.
  by Arlington
 
electricron wrote:One point that I would like to point out that is apparent on both bar charts is the drop off in passenger share over 300 miles, keeping in mind this is a slow train. Which is a major reason why most pundits will suggest rail travel is the most competitive with other modes to travel at distances less than 300 miles.
Yes, and yet, at the same time, there's nothing wrong (and potentially good money) in having a 1500 mile train serve a series of overlapping (or end-to-end) markets in the 300 to 600 mile range if you can get to them all at acceptable times of day (and line up your 1am to 5am operations with the route's natural dead spots, aka the pine barrens of SAV-JAX)
  by F40CFan
 
peconicstation wrote:Here is the official Press Release from Amtrak.

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/68/104/Amtr ... 15-022.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Had they not abandoned the CCC concept, that may have worked with The Star.

Ken
Great, "AmDonald's" food. Well, I won't be taking the Star again any time soon.
  by Arlington
 
F40CFan wrote:Great, "AmDonald's" food. Well, I won't be taking the Star again any time soon.
Not fair to just drop that and let it hang like we can draw larger conclusions from it. Please at least answer:
- How regularly have you been using the Star (and between which endpoints)
- Not even for $100 to $200 lower fares?
- Will you take the Meteor instead?
  by David Benton
 
Arlington wrote:
electricron wrote:One point that I would like to point out that is apparent on both bar charts is the drop off in passenger share over 300 miles, keeping in mind this is a slow train. Which is a major reason why most pundits will suggest rail travel is the most competitive with other modes to travel at distances less than 300 miles.
Yes, and yet, at the same time, there's nothing wrong (and potentially good money) in having a 1500 mile train serve a series of overlapping (or end-to-end) markets in the 300 to 600 mile range if you can get to them all at acceptable times of day (and line up your 1am to 5am operations with the route's natural dead spots, aka the pine barrens of SAV-JAX)
I don't think you can totally infer that the low ridership segments are the nite ones. It would seem a reasonable assumption, but the NARP tables do not give ridership per segment, only per distance bracket.
  by Arlington
 
David Benton wrote:I don't think you can totally infer that the low ridership segments are the nite ones. It would seem a reasonable assumption, but the NARP tables do not give ridership per segment, only per distance bracket.
Actually, you can infer that quite directly, particularly when you look at the low station-usage numbers for the stations the Star serves overnight
SilverStarRiderhip2014.gif
In grey (and from NARP) are the little markets that would have to have more passengers making short-and-overnight trips. In yellow are Columbia (the anchor of the "north half") and Jacksonville (the anchor of the "south quarter"). The small greyed markets (I include Savannah because it so underperforms the Meteor) are the "dogs that don't bark" that tip you off that there's no "action" in the "SC-GA quarter" between CLB and JAX. In fact, fewer than 20 per day (in all directions, boarding and alighting) at most stations.

You can basically divide the Star into the North Half of 750 miles, a South Quarter of 400 miles and an empty SC-GA Quarter of 300 miles in the middle. The SC-GA Quarter is empty in all senses: small towns, wee-hours stations, and in the sense of empty trains. The top 750 miles is very full of day trips, but has mostly emptied out by Columbia SC (CLB) with people who will be the only riders as far as JAX. Then at JAX a booming sub-400 mile market fills things up again.

Top 750 miles is full of busy day markets and whomever will be going overnight
The overnight has just the overnighters and nobody else, because basically nobody needs to get off or get on between CLB and JAX. You could almost seal the train Auto Train style and only lose 28,000 riders (out of 400,000 per year)
Florida 400 miles is full of busy day markets and whomever has come overnight

The Dividing line between Long&Nite and Short&Day is either at 800 or 900 miles. All trips over that length MUST BE long-and-night and essentially all trips under that length are short-and-day

WAS - ORL = 942 Miles and is basically the shortest common overnight. Anything longer requires tacking on at either end
NYP - SAV = 828 Miles and is either the longest day trip or shortest night trip (and timed as such on the Palmetto and Meteor, but goes too late at night on the Star)
NYP - CLB = 743 Miles and is basically the longest common day trip (and timed as such)

Savannah gets 34k passengers from the Meteor but only 9.6 from the Star. You can see what a killer the wee-hours schedule is in killing demand for the Star between CLB and JAX.

So draw the threshold for night as low as 800 if you want to call NYP-SAV "night" and draw it at 900 if you want to call NYP-SAV "day" Either way, what you are looking at in this chart is that anything over 800/900 is the night stuff and anything under are day-timed segments where you don't need both dinner and breakfast:
Image

No matter how you slice it the Star is selling lots of tickets (and a surprising number of rooms) "day" parts NYP-CLB and JAX - TPA/MIA (and selling rooms on those segments rules out selling them through) and therefore emptiest on its night parts (1am to 6am or CLB to JAX), coach or room (which you see in the small size of the orange bar segments over 800 miles). Again, this is unlike the Meteor, which has nice, big orange boxes over 800 miles:
Image
  by CVRA7
 
I imagine that Congressman Mica is happy about this. Maybe Amtrak should name the cafe car menu after him...."Mica-Meal Service" or something similar LOL!
  by Arlington
 
CVRA7 wrote:I imagine that Congressman Mica is happy about this. Maybe Amtrak should name the cafe car menu after him...."Mica-Meal Service" or something similar LOL!
Or call the cafe countertop ForMica ;-) I imagine he will be very happy: they've found a way of preserving all the parts of the Star that Florida uses, and perhaps cutting its losses (which, at $40m/year ($40m revs vs $80m costs) are $10m more than the Meteor's $30m loss ($44m revs vs $74m costs).
  by F40CFan
 
Arlington wrote:
F40CFan wrote:Great, "AmDonald's" food. Well, I won't be taking the Star again any time soon.
Not fair to just drop that and let it hang like we can draw larger conclusions from it. Please at least answer:
- How regularly have you been using the Star (and between which endpoints)
- Not even for $100 to $200 lower fares?
- Will you take the Meteor instead?
I started using the Star when they made connections with the Cap. My daughter, grandchildren and I travel from Chicago to Sebring via D.C. once a year to visit my parents.

No, if I wanted bare-bones "service" I'd take Greyhound. I enjoy the meals in the diner, that's part of what makes taking the train special. If they got rid of the diners and sleepers and replaced them with the day trains you advocate, I'd drive.

Yes, I will layover longer to take the Meteor.
  by chrsjrcj
 
It's not safe to assume that the Star is empty between Columbia and Jacksonville. Looking at NARP's city ridership info, Orlando is the 8th most popular destination for Raleigh passengers (this includes the Star, Carolinian, and Piedmonts). As far as highest revenue, Orlando is #6, Jacksonville is #7, and Tampa is #9. So Orlando has a higher revenue ranking, and Jacksonville and Tampa are able to rank as high revenue destinations but not total riders which most likely means most of those passengers are in sleepers.

As far as Columbia- Orlando, Tampa, Jacksonville, and Miami are ranked 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 7th respectively for ridership, and Tampa, Orlando, Miami, and Jacksonville are ranked 4th, 5th, 7th, and 8th respectively for revenue. It seems that there are not as many sleeping class passengers, but the riders are still there.

http://www.narprail.org/uploads/3/0/4/0 ... cities.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Also, the cumulative boardings/detrainings for stations the Star stops at between Rocky Mount and Savannah are higher than the Meteor. You can use the NARP ridership by route, since they show the specific numbers at each stop for the Meteor and Star.

http://www.narprail.org/uploads/3/0/4/0 ... trains.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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