The "Ocean" VIA Overnight Sleeper

electricron wrote:http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot ... -1.2513711
Via Rail's Maritime-Quebec passenger service in doubt.
CN announced last week that it will discontinue operations on a 70-kilometre section.........

Actualy old news.....the CBC article is from over a month ago (dated Jan 28th)

electricron wrote: Will there be any tracks left, much less a train, for a private operator to run the Ocean?

Yes, VIA has not ruled out re-routing the Ocean on the National Transcontental Railway through Edmundston

NS VIA FAN wrote:

electricron wrote:http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot ... -1.2513711
Via Rail's Maritime-Quebec passenger service in doubt.
CN announced last week that it will discontinue operations on a 70-kilometre section.........

Actualy old news.....the CBC article is from over a month ago (dated Jan 28th)

electricron wrote: Will there be any tracks left, much less a train, for a private operator to run the Ocean?

Yes, VIA has not ruled out re-routing the Ocean on the National Transcontental Railway through Edmundston

I realize it is old news, never-the-less, it's new to this forum.
I chose the latest, almost a year old, thread on the Ocean to introduce this month old news.

It's good to read there is an alternate route available. Does VIA have trackage rights over it now, and can VIA get trackage rights over it in the future? How much will that cost?

electricron wrote:
It's good to read there is an alternate route available. Does VIA have trackage rights over it now, and can VIA get trackage rights over it in the future? How much will that cost?

This alternative route is CN’s mainline between Quebec and the Maritimes.....Fast, CTC and shorter than the Ocean’s current route through Campbellton.

The Ocean has detoured on this line when its usual route is blocked. I experienced a “Rare Mileage Run” here a few years ago.....my trip report:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... ston#p8095" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This line doesn’t have the same population as the route via Campbellton but a new stop at McGivney would serve Fredericton (metro pop. 100,000.....the capital of New Brunswick) There’s also the larger towns of Grand Falls, St. Leonard and a train would have to stop in Edmundston anyway.....a divisional and crew change point.

A train on this route also has the potential to attract US passengers. A new station in St. Leonard would be less than a mile from the old Bangor and Aroostook Station in VanBuren, Maine that hasn’t seen a passenger train since the Potatoland Special in 1960. Also Madawaska, Maine is just across the river from Edmundston, NB.

And at Estcourt you can't get much closer to the US/Canada Border. The bottom of the high railway fill at the south end of the lake IS the border.

https://www.google.ca/maps/preview/@47. ... a=!3m1!1e3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NS VIA FAN wrote:This line doesn’t have the same population as the route via Campbellton but a new stop at McGivney would serve Fredericton (metro pop. 100,000.....the capital of New Brunswick) There’s also the larger towns of Grand Falls, St. Leonard and a train would have to stop in Edmundston anyway.....a divisional and crew change point.

A good point NS VIA FAN,to reference of ridership from the Fredericton area, which hasn't had much mention in most news items, of the potential re route of the Ocean to the NTR. A new Route # 8 highway bypass has been built North from Fredericton toward Newcastle ( paving to be completed this year ), which joins Route 8 just South of McGivney. This new highway alignment would allow a quick access to McGivney for F'ton area train users. The small station in McGivney used when the Edmundston / Moncton RDC service ran ( that service part of the cuts to all regional RDC services in the Maritimes, January 1990 ) still exists ....I believe some platform work was done around the station last year by CN. Passenger ridership lost in Northern New Brunswick if the Ocean is rerouted, should be more than offset by F'ton area traffic, in addition to that of Northwest New Brunswick .....Grand Falls, Edmundston area.

I am one that senses the Ocean will be rerouted over the NTR. Last year when CN first announced their possible abandonment of a portion of the ICR's Newcastle Sub., they stated the Ocean could be easily accomodated on the NTR. More importantly, almost 4 hours could be shaved off the Ocean's current schedule by running over the NTR .... the current schedule end to end ( Hfx - Mtl ) is too long for marketing the train as a good travel option, in my opinion.

Last Thursday Transport Minister Lisa Raitt appeared before a House of Commons Transportation Committee, announcing among other matters, that VIA Service through New Brunswick would not cease " because they have another route " .... so as some observers have stated from the Minister's statement ... the possibility exists the Newcastle Sub may still be saved, however the indications seems clear, that the Ocean would be rerouted, not cancelled as others believe, by the 70 km abandonment portion of the Newcastle Sub.

Here is a link to a recent CBC Article concerning the Maritime Bus Co. struggles to meet ridership goals on the Campbellton - Moncton route ....... there is a reference to VIA in the article.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/maritime-bus-s ... 24090.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wasn't the current route selected -after the Atlantic was discontinued across Maine- because at the time at least a handful of politicians (PM included?) represented towns along the line? Sounds like it was never meant to be on the current routing to begin with so perhaps this could be the silver lining?

NH2060 wrote:Wasn't the current route selected -after the Atlantic was discontinued across Maine- because at the time at least a handful of politicians (PM included?) represented towns along the line? Sounds like it was never meant to be on the current routing to begin with so perhaps this could be the silver lining?

No, the ICR (Intercolonial Rwy) route the Ocean follows today through Campbellton was always the predominate passenger route between Montreal and the Maritimes beginning in the late 1800’s. The Ocean has been on this route since 1904 except for a brief period in the late 1960's when it ran on the NTR via Edmundston.

The Atlantic Limited was a CPR train between Montreal and Saint John only across Maine. It wasn’t extended to Halifax until 1979 after VIA took over.

Where the CNR was operating multiple 10 to 15 cars trains a day through Campbellton, the CPR Atlantic was a short little “pocket streamliner” across Maine. (but it did have a dome!)

Feds to fund repairs to N.B. Via Rail link
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-bruns ... -1.2638146" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

labaienordique wrote:Feds to fund repairs to N.B. Via Rail link
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-bruns ... -1.2638146" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That is good news. I guess that means the ocean will keep on existing? XD

"Existing" is a pretty poor show. In order to rebuild rail as a contributor to Atlantic Canada transport there should be a train into and out of Halifax daily, even if it can only make it to Sackville or Moncton before turning for home.

Getting back to the original premise of the thread, the reality is that as far as Mountaineer goes, they have a different business model to VIA. No doubt they feel they could make money on Ocean but a lot of the smaller communities who have kicked up a fuss about Ocean retention would not be served by a service similar to that RM offers in BC. That is a firm not shy about lobbying Transport Canada not only in their own interest but to restrict VIA's: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... le4101792/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

dowlingm wrote: Getting back to the original premise of the thread, the reality is that as far as Mountaineer goes, they have a different business model to VIA. No doubt they feel they could make money on Ocean but a lot of the smaller communities who have kicked up a fuss about Ocean retention would not be served by a service similar to that RM offers in BC.

As I previously said.........

NS VIA FAN wrote: As a taxpayer, I have no problem providing you with basic transportation (coach) the same as I pay for road construction but why should I be subsidizing your sleeping car travel. The same goes for the Canadian. Subsidize the basic coach portion but have Rocky Mountaineer (or similar company) take over the Sleepers. Charge what the market will bear........They certainly can run a first-class operation and don’t seem to have a problem filling their trains with tourists. The privatized trains would still provide travel to intermediate points unlike the end-point only travel on the Rocky Mountaineer today.

This could be VIA continuing to run a subsidized basic coach and meal service but have the sleepers run by others.

That will be an interesting industrial relations exercise given the rather different setups.

A trip last week on the Ocean from Campbellton to Truro certainly reinforces what I’ve experienced lately for ridership. The train had pretty well emptied out by Moncton…..especially the sleepers but a few did board in Moncton for the run onto Halifax.

Other than summer and holidays…..the sleeper market seems to have dried-up out of Halifax …..they’re all on that 1 1\2 to 2 hr flight to Montreal, Ottawa or Toronto…..so perhaps the Ocean should be repositioned as a couple of “Daytime” trains: Halifax-Moncton-Campbellton and Campbellton to Montreal.

Or maybe a Moncton-Montreal run with coaches and a Business Class (VIA1) car? If the track on the ICR is now going to be repaired sufficiently, perhaps the speeds of 20 years ago will be achievable. Looking at the Oceans schedule for 1994, it departed Moncton at 6:45PM and arrived in Montreal at 8:15AM. Advance that by 12 hours and you have a pretty good daytime schedule. Say….depart Moncton at 7AM with an 8:30PM arrival into Montreal. Eastbound…..out of Montreal at 7AM for an 11PM arrival at Moncton. This would give some excellent times at Campbellton, Mont Joli, Rimouski and Riviere-du-Loup compared to the late night or wee hours of the morning that they have now!

An origin/destination survey would be required first as connections at Montreal on a daytime run would be poor or non-existent for anyone continuing onto Ontario…… or perhaps there will be an entirely new market for day trips into Quebec City or Montreal from say Rimouski that would off-set the connecting traffic lost.

Does VIA have enough spare coach equipment to assemble a Montreal-Moncton day train? And if it were more feasible on that end could a separate Moncton-Halifax train survive on its own? Even as a direct connection to/from the Montreal train?

the problem with VIA is that they are not obligated to publish the level of data Amtrak does. Accordingly, it's difficult to know what they can or can't do. It was okay to send 3 leased F59s pulling five coaches up to Jonquiere and Senneterre when a turntable broke a while back (and even normal ops is two F40s because the train splits). The coach refurb programme has dragged on longer than expected while there is a sense that the Feds have decided that VIA has gotten enough cash for now that CN Kingston Sub is upgraded.

VIA is expected to be a luxury train operator, a rural service operator and an intercity operator all at the same time and isn't resourced accordingly. Most people commenting on VIA approach it from only one perspective, and want the other two to be shaved back to expand the bit that works for them. In the case of Ocean, I don't see much improvement there unless QC, NB and NS come to the table with a $ commitment. Instead VIA got caught in a game of chicken between CN and the Feds which almost led to a disruptive re-route.

A weekend on the Ocean to Montreal then onto Ottawa.

Work was going to have me in Ottawa for a couple of days so I decided to make it into a long weekend and head out Friday morning on VIA’s Ocean.

I would have to fly back so the first stop was to drop my car off at YHZ......the Halifax International Airport then catch the MetroX bus downtown to the VIA Rail Station.







The Ocean departed Halifax on time at 11am with 5 boarding the sleepers and about 30 in coach. We had 3 F40s hauling 13 Renaissance Cars including a baggage car, 3 coaches, 2 service/lounge cars, a diner, 5 sleepers, a transition car and Assiniboine Park……a Dome-Observation bringing up the markers.





I made my way back to the Dome for the departure from Halifax and stayed until nearly Truro when I went for Lunch joining about 5 others in the diner. I had the cold roast turkey sandwich with soup and chips on the side.



After that is was just a lazy afternoon with a coffee or two up in the dome as we made our way through Nova Scotia and on into New Brunswick. Arrival in Moncton was 10 minutes early at 3:10pm with a good crowd waiting and the sleepers and coaches started to fill up as they continued to do as we headed west through the evening.



At Pacific Jct near Moncton we veered away from CN’s National Transcontinental main and headed up the infamous Newcastle Subdivision. Only a couple of years ago the Ocean covered the 120 miles from Moncton to Bathurst in 2 1\2 hrs……it now takes 4 1\2 hrs and the section between Miramichi and Bathurst was subject to total abandonment just last spring. But better days are ahead and numerous work projects are now underway that should see the Ocean return to a more respectable speed through here. I spent some time in the Ren Lounge where Wi-Fi is available.