• Reversing Acela vs. Regional on main line

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by jscola30
 
Back in January, I took an Acela to NYC. Somewhere between RI and CT, the train stopped for a while (I knew something was wrong). The conductor told us the regional in front of us had broken down and techs were on it. Then about 15 min or so later he said techs are unable to fix it, so we have to reverse 19 miles to the nearest crossover (Westerly, RI I think). Now this was easy enough (at least in terms of actually doing the reverse, the dispatching probably was more) because the Acela has a loco at each end, engineer doesn't even have to go outside. Could we have done this on a Regional or would it have been totally impossible (assuming regional does not have loco on rear)?
  by 4400Washboard
 
You could technically stick a couple guys down at the reverse end of the train and have them radioing back to the motorman in the cab of the locomotive signals, speed, etc. I'm 99.9999% sure that's not allowed. If there is the rare occurance that there was a cab on the end (Metroliner Business/Conference Car do end up on the ends of Regionals occasionally), then you could reverse the train. Or, you could send a diesel or EMU to pull the train back. But, I'm still going to say that it's impossible for a regional to back up like that.
  by jscola30
 
yea we ended up with 1.5 hour delay, which I didn't think was that bad all in all (I once was on another Acela that was behind a regional that hit someone, I think the train was 2-2.5 hours late), although it did screw up allota passengers who had work in NYC that day, so good thing I was on an Acela.
  by Matt Johnson
 
tjensen wrote: If there is the rare occurance that there was a cab on the end (Metroliner Business/Conference Car do end up on the ends of Regionals occasionally), then you could reverse the train.
Conference car 9800 isn't an operational cab anymore from what I understand.
  by jp1822
 
Matt Johnson wrote:
tjensen wrote: If there is the rare occurance that there was a cab on the end (Metroliner Business/Conference Car do end up on the ends of Regionals occasionally), then you could reverse the train.
Conference car 9800 isn't an operational cab anymore from what I understand.
The Conference Car 9800 is largely part of the Amtrak's business fleet. Every time I've called up to inquire about "renting" it for a conference with business folks from NYP to Washington DC or vice versa, the Amtrak agents seem to know nothing about this car or how to book it.
  by DutchRailnut
 
it does not matter what is on end, making a move against established current of traffic to next interlocking still has to be made at restricted speed.
  by ThirdRail7
 
If there is an operating cab, the engineer must operate from it unless relieved by 4 exceptions. Otherwise, a qualified employee mans the vestibule, and directs the backing move.
  by emd645e3
 
DutchRailnut wrote:it does not matter what is on end, making a move against established current of traffic to next interlocking still has to be made at restricted speed.
Most, if not all, of the signalling up there is bi-directional, so they'd be running restricted speed until governed by a more favorable cab signal, assuming the engineer moves to the rear cab of an Acela.
tjensen wrote:You could technically stick a couple guys down at the reverse end of the train and have them radioing back to the motorman in the cab of the locomotive signals, speed, etc. I'm 99.9999% sure that's not allowed. If there is the rare occurance that there was a cab on the end (Metroliner Business/Conference Car do end up on the ends of Regionals occasionally), then you could reverse the train. Or, you could send a diesel or EMU to pull the train back. But, I'm still going to say that it's impossible for a regional to back up like that.
It's not impossible with a regional, it's just time consuming. Max speed on a reverse move without an operating cab on that end is 20mph per timetable special instruction.
  by Amtk30
 
Can't add about Acela vs Regional, but I can certainly concur with respected comments regarding qualified employee manning the vestibule for Amtk reverse moves. Last May, I was on #29 in the last coach somewhere west of Pittsburgh. We stop then after a while begin backing up many miles with qualified personnel guiding the movement. Sure was kind of scary after realizing I was riding a fully loaded LD Superliner consist in reverse in the middle of the night somewhere in eastern Ohio.

I presume there are similar procedures for a Regional amfleet consist on the NE main.

Hope I didn't stray off topic too much!

Amtk30
  by CSX Conductor
 
Correction to the previous post. Restricted Speed, not exceeding 20mph.
  by jscola30
 
Interesting, I felt we were going more than 20mph in reverse, certainly not 100mph+, but it did feel faster than 20
  by jogden
 
There are a few things going on here, which you are asking about. While I am not familiar with the specific operating rules that govern that particular stretch of track, I'll explain it as I understand it.

First of all, basically any train can be reversed. If there is a locomotive on either end, obviously the engineer can change ends and run from the former rear end of the train. With a conventional train, which has the locomotive on the head end, the engineer can operate from up there while someone, such as the conductor, visually protects the movement from the other end. In this respect, the movement would be no different than any other shove, such as in a yard or terminal area. Usually speed limits for shoving are 20 mph for freight equipment and 30 mph for passenger equipment. Of course, if any more restrictive speed limits are in place in the area in question, those would have to be observed.

On a main track, you add a few more variables in which complicate the possibility of making such a movement. Trains need some sort of authority or protection to operate on a main track. There are two types of authority, directional and bidirectional. In CTC, bidirectional authority would be something like Track and Time, where directional authority would be what the signals indicate. Under bidirectional authority, a train may move either direction within the limits of that authority without needing any other permission. Of course, they still need to observe the rules for shoving equipment, if that is the case. Under directional authority, things are a little different. Moving in the direction opposite the authorized direction requires permission from the train dispatcher, and usually such movements are made at restricted speed. Some signaled railroads allow a movement opposite the authorized direction without permission as long as the rear of the train stays within the same signal block, but some require permission regardless. Of course, if equipment is being shoved, all the rules governing shoving must also be considered.

In CTC territory, this can get confusing sometimes. The dispatcher controls "controlled signals," and it is those signals that grant authority to trains. The intermediate signals, while they do give information about the track and signals ahead, they do not grant authority. So if a train begins moving opposite the authorized direction with the appropriate permission from the dispatcher, and they then pass a controlled signal displaying a proceed indication, once they pass that they are no longer limited to restricted speed, because that signal authorizes movement in the direction they are moving. So the train may be physically moving backwards, making a shoving movement, but is moving in the authorized direction. Presumably, in the situation described in this thread, they would eventually stop, crossover to the other main, and move in the original direction again. Once they stop and start moving the opposite direction, they would again be moving in a direction opposite the authorized direction, until the locomotive passes a controlled signal displaying a proceed indication, and would be required to move at restricted speed up to that point. The direction the train is physically facing has nothing to do with the direction of its authority, which is where most people get confused. For normal, over the road operations, a train will be facing the direction in which it is authorized, but when you start to get into unusual situations or work trains, that goes out the window.

Current of traffic is a little different. It is basically two main tracks which are only signaled for the normal direction of travel on each track. When running against the current of traffic, you would not see any block signals, so you would need some sort of written authority, like a track warrant or track permit, for example. Since there would be no signals governing that movement, it would essentially be like operating in dark territory, and trains would be limited to 49 mph for freight and 59 mph for passenger. As always, more restrictive speed limits would also need to be observed.

Anyway, as I said, I am not familiar with the specific territory in question here. There probably are more local rules and practices that I am not aware of. But what I do know is that such a situation is not impossible, but it covers several different scenarios all rolled into one.
  by Jersey_Mike
 
DutchRailnut wrote:it does not matter what is on end, making a move against established current of traffic to next interlocking still has to be made at restricted speed.
That depends on how your CTC system is set up. There are two flavors of CTC when it comes to establishing current of traffic. The first is the "traffic lever" variety that mimics the function of the older manual traffic control systems. Signals in the opposing direction stay at their most restrictive indication until traffic is reversed and traffic cannot be reversed until the segment between interlockings is completely clear. The second system allows signals in both directions to float until a route is cleared into the section of track from one of the interlockings on either side. This provides for instant reverse movement under non-restrictive signal indications.