Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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  by spidey3
 
I commute daily in and out of Grand Central, usually on trains pulled (or pushed) by the P32's. Most often I use the north-end exit to get to/from my office.

I have noticed that rather often the locomotive is running on diesel either when arriving at, or departing from, GCT.

Why is this? I thought everything was supposed to be running on 3rd rail when at GCT...

Spidey!!!
  by RearOfSignal
 
spidey3 wrote:I commute daily in and out of Grand Central, usually on trains pulled (or pushed) by the P32's. Most often I use the north-end exit to get to/from my office.

I have noticed that rather often the locomotive is running on diesel either when arriving at, or departing from, GCT.

Why is this? I thought everything was supposed to be running on 3rd rail when at GCT...

Spidey!!!
How do you know it's running in diesel?
  by mkm4
 
Just because the fans are on, doesn't mean it running.

Though in the last two days I've been on two diesels were something has gone wrong and they had to restart the engine.
  by DutchRailnut
 
We have given answers to these questions about a dozen times, please use search function of this forum.
  by spidey3
 
DutchRailnut wrote:We have given answers to these questions about a dozen times, please use search function of this forum.
I'm not trying to be a pain, but:
  • I know the difference between fans running and diesel engine running.
  • I would not be posting if I had not already tried searching and not found the answer to my specific question.
  • The actual question I asked was not previously asked, as far as I can tell.
I understand that sometimes it is necessary to have the engine running all the way to the platform, especially when there is congestion, to avoid problems due to 3rd rail gaps. I also understand that the P32's are not designed to run on electric for extended periods of time, and that drawing that much current from the 3rd rail over long distances poses various problems

But my question is not about RUNNING on diesel.

The specific question here is why, over the past few months, I have seen P32's parked at the platform in GCT with the diesel engine still running long after the train arrived or before departure on multiple occasions?
  by RearOfSignal
 
spidey3 wrote:
DutchRailnut wrote:We have given answers to these questions about a dozen times, please use search function of this forum.
I'm not trying to be a pain, but:
  • I know the difference between fans running and diesel engine running.
  • I would not be posting if I had not already tried searching and not found the answer to my specific question.
  • The actual question I asked was not previously asked, as far as I can tell.
I understand that sometimes it is necessary to have the engine running all the way to the platform, especially when there is congestion, to avoid problems due to 3rd rail gaps. I also understand that the P32's are not designed to run on electric for extended periods of time, and that drawing that much current from the 3rd rail over long distances poses various problems

But my question is not about RUNNING on diesel.

The specific question here is why, over the past few months, I have seen P32's parked at the platform in GCT with the diesel engine still running long after the train arrived or before departure on multiple occasions?
What do you consider long after or before arrival and departure? And how often is multiple occasions? Could be as simple as the conductor didn't center the mode switch. It's the same as asking why were the headlights left on the rear? Maybe somebody goofed. What more of a reason are you looking for? It was not done intentionally, it causes quite a stir in office buildings above when they fill with smoke, so if someone left it on they'll be talked to about it.
  by spidey3
 
RearOfSignal wrote:What do you consider long after or before arrival and departure? And how often is multiple occasions? Could be as simple as the conductor didn't center the mode switch. It's the same as asking why were the headlights left on the rear? Maybe somebody goofed. What more of a reason are you looking for? It was not done intentionally, it causes quite a stir in office buildings above when they fill with smoke, so if someone left it on they'll be talked to about it.
I originally thought it to be accidental, but then it seemed to be happening more often than I had expected, and wondered if some new reason had developed beyond those which I already knew (which you enumerate above). I wondered if the P32's were developing problems preventing their use on 3rd rail (as happened in the latter days of the FL-9's)...

As for how long, I've noticed diesel still running ~5-10 minutes after arrival. I noted this because sometimes I end up riding the south-most car of the train, and then on arrival at GCT I wait until the platform clears a bit before attempting to walk the length of the platform northward to the Northwest Passage exit (thereby avoiding the salmon heading upstream experience).

On some other occasions, I have arrived at the platform early for the train home (say, 10-15 minutes before departure) and noticed a LOT of diesel fumes, exhaust, etc. in the north end of the platform area, and noted a few running diesels.

Concerning the comparison to headlights left on the rear, I understand that mistakes happen, and sometimes the lights are left on, the homework left on the desk, or the keys left in the ignition of the car. Leaving the car in the garage with the engine running, on the other hand, is a bit more uncommon...

Spidey!!!
  by DutchRailnut
 
let it be clear, that other than self imposed restrictions, there is no law or ordinance in City of New York about diesels in GCT or park ave tunnel.
  by spidey3
 
DutchRailnut wrote:let it be clear, that other than self imposed restrictions, there is no law or ordinance in City of New York about diesels in GCT or park ave tunnel.
Yeah, I know.

This morning I arrived and noted that our train ran diesel all the way to GCT -- not surprising as there were several delays in the tunnel / approach to GCT, and I can imagine the desire to not be sitting gapped. Similarly, the unit on the opposite side of the platform had the diesel running on the platform -- and then about 3-4 minutes later took off northbound on diesel power.

Is this a problem per se? No. But I do have to say that the fumes made things pretty unpleasant...
  by FL9AC
 
Many inbound trains in push mode will have the diesel running but be moving under 3rd rail power. Diesel is left running in case engine gaps which is easier in push mode as engineer may not know where loco is almost 8 cars behind them. All diesel trains unless loco has electric-mode issues leave GCT with diesel engine completely shut down and running solely on 3rd rail power.
  by spidey3
 
FL9AC wrote:
spidey3 wrote:...the unit on the opposite side of the platform had the diesel running on the platform -- and then about 3-4 minutes later took off northbound on diesel power.
[...]
All diesel trains unless loco has electric-mode issues leave GCT with diesel engine completely shut down and running solely on 3rd rail power.
So, in the case I described, it seems that there was a problem with electric mode on that particular unit - bringing us back to my original question: Is there a pervasive problem with electric mode on the P32's?
  by DutchRailnut
 
again answer is no, and again no prohibition on running in diesel. if you have problem with that please call Metro North.
  by MattW
 
DutchRailnut wrote:again answer is no, and again no prohibition on running in diesel. if you have problem with that please call Metro North.
See, it's posts like these that make us railfans have to practically beg for people not to jump down our throats for asking a simple question. Nowhere in the OP's posts does he say he has a problem, maybe he's just curious why there would be a deviation from the norm. Plus, since you work for Metro North, do you really think that your customer service would answer such a question with anything other than non-committal PR speak? I am thankful for the wealth of knowledge by the rail railroaders and railroad insiders on this forum, and (before you or someone else jumps on me on this angle) I fully understand that you folks are not always able to share the information that we want. That's fine, the last thing I and I'm sure most other railfans want is for one of you to lose their jobs over providing information. But that doesn't entitle you to be rude toward us. If you can't answer, fine, either just say "I am not at liberty to say" or don't answer at all. The few railfans who don't understand that and continue to push can be referred to the staff if here, blocked from e-mail if that's a problem, or referred to the police if it's something in real life!
  by truck6018
 
MattW wrote: See, it's posts like these that make us railfans have to practically beg for people not to jump down our throats for asking a simple question.
Unfortunately some people can't accept the answer to the simplest of questions no matter what the answer is.
  by spidey3
 
truck6018 wrote:
MattW wrote: See, it's posts like these that make us railfans have to practically beg for people not to jump down our throats for asking a simple question.
Unfortunately some people can't accept the answer to the simplest of questions no matter what the answer is.
Look, I am not trying to be a pain.

It's just that I still haven't seen a discussion of my actual question, which is:
Is there a problem which is causing the P32's to be run on diesel outbound from GCT more now than used to be the case? I have seen this happen much more often in the past 6 months than in my previous ~10 years riding the line behind the same engines...

Before responding, please note that I understand all of the following:
  • There is no law disallowing diesel use in the tunnels
  • There are good reasons why units sometimes run on diesel inbound to GCT
  • It makes sense to keep the diesel engine running as a precaution even when running on electric sometimes
  • Fans make a lot of noise - but sound different than a running diesel engine
  • Loco hauled trains generally run outbound from GCT on electric with the diesel engine off
  • Mistakes happen sometimes
  • Riding the line every day for 12 years does not make me an expert