Long/Medium Distance Maine Amtrak Service

Ridgefielder wrote:

NH2060 wrote:

TomNelligan wrote:If Montreal is the big attraction, run a train out of Boston via Palmer, White River Junction, and St. Albans.

I'm sure CSX would love that Other than that such a routing for a day train, let alone a night one, doesn't sound too "out there". The Adirondack covers more territory in one day and one would think that route would be primed for a sleeper train.

This is going off-topic to Maine, but I'm willing to bet this a routing we actually see with service on it-- albeit likely as a day train-- within the next 10-15 years. Would connect Boston directly with the VT ski resorts, for one thing...

To go a little further down the non-Maine path, I'll resurrect a suggestion from a couple of years ago: when the Vermonter becomes the Montrealer again (or even before), run it like the Empire Builder with two sections, one for NYP and one for
BOS. You could either switch the sections as with the EB, or use VIA's J-Train (joined train) concept. Bellows Falls or WRJ would seem to work as the joining/splitting point. This assumes the NYP section is back on the Conn River line.

Station Aficionado wrote:

Ridgefielder wrote:

NH2060 wrote:

TomNelligan wrote:If Montreal is the big attraction, run a train out of Boston via Palmer, White River Junction, and St. Albans.

I'm sure CSX would love that Other than that such a routing for a day train, let alone a night one, doesn't sound too "out there". The Adirondack covers more territory in one day and one would think that route would be primed for a sleeper train.

This is going off-topic to Maine, but I'm willing to bet this a routing we actually see with service on it-- albeit likely as a day train-- within the next 10-15 years. Would connect Boston directly with the VT ski resorts, for one thing...

To go a little further down the non-Maine path, I'll resurrect a suggestion from a couple of years ago: when the Vermonter becomes the Montrealer again (or even before), run it like the Empire Builder with two sections, one for NYP and one for
BOS. You could either switch the sections as with the EB, or use VIA's J-Train (joined train) concept. Bellows Falls or WRJ would seem to work as the joining/splitting point. This assumes the NYP section is back on the Conn River line.

Wouldn't you have to have an engine based in WRJ then to take the BOS or WAS section south?

Note to mods-- you might want to break this off into a separate discussion-- IIRC there's a Boston-Montreal passenger service thread somewhere.

Station Aficionado wrote:

Ridgefielder wrote:

NH2060 wrote:

TomNelligan wrote:If Montreal is the big attraction, run a train out of Boston via Palmer, White River Junction, and St. Albans.

I'm sure CSX would love that Other than that such a routing for a day train, let alone a night one, doesn't sound too "out there". The Adirondack covers more territory in one day and one would think that route would be primed for a sleeper train.

This is going off-topic to Maine, but I'm willing to bet this a routing we actually see with service on it-- albeit likely as a day train-- within the next 10-15 years. Would connect Boston directly with the VT ski resorts, for one thing...

To go a little further down the non-Maine path, I'll resurrect a suggestion from a couple of years ago: when the Vermonter becomes the Montrealer again (or even before), run it like the Empire Builder with two sections, one for NYP and one for
BOS. You could either switch the sections as with the EB, or use VIA's J-Train (joined train) concept. Bellows Falls or WRJ would seem to work as the joining/splitting point. This assumes the NYP section is back on the Conn River line.

Wouldn't you have to have an engine based in WRJ then to take the BOS or WAS section south?

Note to mods-- you might want to break this off into a separate discussion-- IIRC there's a Boston-Montreal passenger service thread somewhere.

Ridgefielder wrote:

Station Aficionado wrote:

Ridgefielder wrote:

NH2060 wrote:

TomNelligan wrote:If Montreal is the big attraction, run a train out of Boston via Palmer, White River Junction, and St. Albans.

I'm sure CSX would love that Other than that such a routing for a day train, let alone a night one, doesn't sound too "out there". The Adirondack covers more territory in one day and one would think that route would be primed for a sleeper train.

This is going off-topic to Maine, but I'm willing to bet this a routing we actually see with service on it-- albeit likely as a day train-- within the next 10-15 years. Would connect Boston directly with the VT ski resorts, for one thing...

To go a little further down the non-Maine path, I'll resurrect a suggestion from a couple of years ago: when the Vermonter becomes the Montrealer again (or even before), run it like the Empire Builder with two sections, one for NYP and one for
BOS. You could either switch the sections as with the EB, or use VIA's J-Train (joined train) concept. Bellows Falls or WRJ would seem to work as the joining/splitting point. This assumes the NYP section is back on the Conn River line.

Wouldn't you have to have an engine based in WRJ then to take the BOS or WAS section south?

Note to mods-- you might want to break this off into a separate discussion-- IIRC there's a Boston-Montreal passenger service thread somewhere.

Why not run with two engines Montreal to Brattleboro or WRJ and then split them for the Boston and New York/DC sections? Amtrak uses two engines on the Boston section of the Lake Shore and two engines are often used on the existing Vermonter anyway.

This idea of a Montreal - Boston train is very intriguing considering the new routing of the Vermonter, the appeal of extending the Vermonter to Montreal, the desire for retaining service on the existing route, and the ease of actually starting the service. Relatively speaking, this is like the Massachusetts DOT decision to extend a commuter train to Cape Cod to create a whole new service and open an entirely new market with very little investment. It's a no-brainer really. Probably the easiest, cheapest and quickest new Amtrak service ever developed.

Some new stuff (but not a lot) new on the proposals from today's (Manchester) Union Leader:

Railway company proposing Montreal to Portland service through northern NH - http://www.unionleader.com/article/2013 ... /131129544" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The possibility of passenger rail from Montreal to Portland, Maine, is gaining momentum in the North Country. Two plans to use the rails are awaiting a nod from St. Lawrence and Atlantic.

The Golden Eagle Railway Corporation is proposing a commuter-type day train between Portland and Montreal. It would go from Portland to Montreal one day and back the next day. Its proposed route through New Hampshire would include the towns of Conway, Berlin, Gorham and Groveton.

David Schwanke, president of Golden Eagle, said there would be several stops. Eventually Golden Eagle would like to provide commuter service back and forth four times a day, perhaps more on the weekends.

He said if approved by St. Lawrence and Atlantic, the company would also be looking for a place for a restoration facility and corporate headquarters.

and

The second proposal comes from Francois Rebella, a former representative on the National Assembly of Quebec, who has teamed up with former Maine State Senate President Richard Bennett. They are proposing a night train that would run between Montreal and Portland. That train would leave Montreal at dinnertime and would include dining cars, lounge cars, a coach and sleeper cars. It would arrive in Portland in time to connect with the Amtrak Downeaster to Boston.

The train would return to Portland that evening. Rebella met with Gorham selectmen a couple of weeks ago. He said he is hoping for a three-month pilot program next summer. Because the train would be going through New Hampshire in the middle of the night, it is not clear yet whether other stops would be made.

Hey, all it takes is a big pile of someone's money, right? But I think it is rather a stretch to refer to Portland-Montreal as a "commuter service". And even if the StL&A is on board with this plan and it somehow works for them financially, CN and VIA will have a say if they want to run into downtown Montreal, and they may not be as accommodating as a small regional carrier. One of the reasons Amtrak gave at the time for the cutback of the Montrealer to a US-only run was high costs being charged to it as a tenant north of the border.

TomNelligan wrote:Hey, all it takes is a big pile of someone's money, right? But I think it is rather a stretch to refer to Portland-Montreal as a "commuter service". And even if the StL&A is on board with this plan and it somehow works for them financially, CN and VIA will have a say if they want to run into downtown Montreal, and they may not be as accommodating as a small regional carrier. One of the reasons Amtrak gave at the time for the cutback of the Montrealer to a US-only run was high costs being charged to it as a tenant north of the border.

I agree. I don't consider either of these proposals to be serious.

On the other hand....

* The board discussed several private initiatives requesting NNEPRA involvement. They include:
•A Montreal-Portland-Boston hotel train
•Several commuting/feeder proposals from Lewiston-Auburn to Portland
•TrainRiders/NE's letter proposing a Downeaster route to New York City

The board decided to devote a workshop in December for the purpose of determining whether or not NNEPRA should involve itself in these issues and if so, how best to evaluate and prioritize the proposals.

I do take TrainRiders/Northeast Proposals regarding a resumption of service to New York City very seriously and worthy of at least further consideration and discussion.

I wonder if our poster from TRNE would be willing and able to share the contents of the New York City proposal, either here or on the TR/NE website.

markhb wrote:I wonder if our poster from TRNE would be willing and able to share the contents of the New York City proposal, either here or on the TR/NE website.

I was mildly surprised they didn't post it on their website.

gokeefe wrote:On the other hand....

I do take TrainRiders/Northeast Proposals regarding a resumption of service to New York City very seriously and worthy of at least further consideration and discussion.

If service to NYC will travel through Worcester, they would likely get a receptive ear from former Lt. Gov. TIm Murray, who is now president of the Worcester Chamber of Commerce and typically supportive of rail service.

gokeefe wrote: I do take TrainRiders/Northeast Proposals regarding a resumption of service to New York City very seriously and worthy of at least further consideration and discussion.

I agree. The stars may be coming into alignment on a NYP to Portland ME service. In an news article a week or two ago on the $12 billion 5 year transportation funding bond bill that is working its way through the Mass legislature, it stated that the funding included $175 million for track improvements for NYC to Pittsfield, Springfield to Worcester, and Cape Cod routes.

From what I can tell, extending the Danbury line to Pittsfield MA is not in the current CT plans at all and CT has a lot of other rail projects on its plate. I think restoration of a commuter line service to Pittsfield is likely to eventually happen, but not in the near or medium term as Gov. Patrick who appears the main booster will be out of office after next year. So much of that $175 million may go to Springfield to Worcester upgrades in support of restoring Inland Route Regional service.

Mass DOT is now picking up part of the subsidy cost for the Vermonter. I expect that a NYP to Portland train would go over the Worcester line, Grand Junction and reverse direction at BON. Mass DOT should be willing to contribute a portion of the operating subsidy for a NYP to Portland train, since it provides additional service for MA stops. Will probably take at least 4 to 5 years to happen while the track upgrade projects advance for NHV-SPG and SPG-WOR, but I consider the odds of such a train pretty good within 8 to 10 years.

agree. The stars may be coming into alignment on a NYP to Portland ME service. In an news article a week or two ago on the $12 billion 5 year transportation funding bond bill that is working its way through the Mass legislature, it stated that the funding included $175 million for track improvements for NYC to Pittsfield, Springfield to Worcester, and Cape Cod routes.

Not sure how much interest there is in this in MA. Would require some serious track work on the Worcester-Ayer track
segment, plus a lot of work from Harvard to Lawrence. I don't see much interest around here in this, even though they
would probably pick up a couple of stops here (Lawrence, Ayer). The other way, of running it along the inland route and
then connecting along the Grand Junction to North Station, may have some merit; little track work would be needed
for a once or twice a day train. Might be some issues with the labs along the track; otherwise, seems pretty doable.

Some months ago, there was an extensive thread on the use of the Grand Junction as a means of bringing additional Worcester trains to/from BON. I thought that the general consensus was that this idea was a non-starter. While MBTA and Amtrak equipment (Downeaster) is deadheaded over the Grand Junction, is unlikely that it is certified for passenger use, plus it has lots of grade crossings. Besides, why would a Portland/NYC service want to use this route rather than the traditional Stony Brook route?
-John

The argument in favor of the Grand Junction route is that it would hit Boston directly. The argument (as I see it) in favor of the traditional I-495ish routing is that you could create an Outer Ring of rail service connecting Haverhill, Lowell, Ayer and Worcester and their respective commuter rail lines.