Railroad Forums
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Greg Moore wrote:As a reminder, there is an option on 70 additional Viewliner cars if Amtrak can come up with money and the need. I think the need is becoming more and more obvious.Indeed. And it could all come together very very fast if they are able to deploy the new Viewliners to maximize revenue.
Greg Moore wrote:As a reminder, there is an option on 70 additional Viewliner cars if Amtrak can come up with money and the need. I think the need is becoming more and more obvious.The need was apparent years ago when they only ordered 50.
gokeefe wrote:Ayup. I'm sure Amtrak is chomping at the bit to get the new cars, even if only to do work on the current ones and get rid of the current Heritage diners.Greg Moore wrote:As a reminder, there is an option on 70 additional Viewliner cars if Amtrak can come up with money and the need. I think the need is becoming more and more obvious.Indeed. And it could all come together very very fast if they are able to deploy the new Viewliners to maximize revenue.
Greg Moore wrote:Probably in excess of $100K/year per car, maybe substantially more than that. I could be off by an entire order of magnitude. Non-routine maintenance labor alone on these cars could equal that amount. Parts inventory and expenditures for custom work required for so much of these trains probably would drive costs even higher.gokeefe wrote:Ayup. I'm sure Amtrak is chomping at the bit to get the new cars, even if only to do work on the current ones and get rid of the current Heritage diners.Greg Moore wrote:As a reminder, there is an option on 70 additional Viewliner cars if Amtrak can come up with money and the need. I think the need is becoming more and more obvious.Indeed. And it could all come together very very fast if they are able to deploy the new Viewliners to maximize revenue.
(I wonder exactly how much money will be saved just by replacing the Heritage diners.)
gokeefe wrote:Interestingly enough the Chief Mechanical Officer's Report for the newly posted October 2012 Performance Report shows 7 Heritage Diners scheduled to be overhauled at Beech Grove this year, with two completed in October. Total for these cars must be easily in excess of $1M each for labor and parts. I can't imagine it being any lower than that. So, just, for overhauls this year I would project that Amtrak will spend something close to $7M on their Heritage Diners. Hard to imagine anything less than that, but that's me and my own assumptions regarding the amount of work that goes into an "overhaul" of a car.Greg Moore wrote:Probably in excess of $100K/year per car, maybe substantially more than that. I could be off by an entire order of magnitude. Non-routine maintenance labor alone on these cars could equal that amount. Parts inventory and expenditures for custom work required for so much of these trains probably would drive costs even higher.gokeefe wrote:Ayup. I'm sure Amtrak is chomping at the bit to get the new cars, even if only to do work on the current ones and get rid of the current Heritage diners.Greg Moore wrote:As a reminder, there is an option on 70 additional Viewliner cars if Amtrak can come up with money and the need. I think the need is becoming more and more obvious.Indeed. And it could all come together very very fast if they are able to deploy the new Viewliners to maximize revenue.
(I wonder exactly how much money will be saved just by replacing the Heritage diners.)
kmillard wrote:The CAF order is for 130 cars total. Or are you referring to the original mid-90s Viewliner order which was for 100 sleepers. but got cut to 50 after budget cuts and financial problems by the builder?Greg Moore wrote:As a reminder, there is an option on 70 additional Viewliner cars if Amtrak can come up with money and the need. I think the need is becoming more and more obvious.The need was apparent years ago when they only ordered 50.
afiggatt wrote:I suspect that if they can, they'll just keep ordering 10-15 a year until the 70 are built. Better off keeping the manufacturing line open if they can.kmillard wrote:The CAF order is for 130 cars total. Or are you referring to the original mid-90s Viewliner order which was for 100 sleepers. but got cut to 50 after budget cuts and financial problems by the builder?Greg Moore wrote:As a reminder, there is an option on 70 additional Viewliner cars if Amtrak can come up with money and the need. I think the need is becoming more and more obvious.The need was apparent years ago when they only ordered 50.
I would not expect Amtrak to exercise the CAF option for all 70 cars. The order is for bag-dorm, diner, sleeper, and baggage car. The option will only cover those car types and Amtrak really can't justify buying that many sleepers, bag-dorms, or diners for the single level routes. Flights of fantasy on here not withstanding. But if Congress keeps funding Amtrak at current levels and leaves a positive surplus amount in the operating subsidy, Amtrak should be able to cover payments for exercising options for another 10 to 30 cars Get another 10 sleepers while the production line is open would be a start.
BTW, the House has passed its version of the Hurricane Sandy emergency relief bill. There are funds in it for Amtrak, at least $32 million for operating losses and $68 million for storm damage repair & future mitigation work, but I'm not clear on whether the $188 million for starting the Gateway project survived the House bill markup process. The House bill goes to the Senate where they may pass a revised version and it is back to the House again.
Greg Moore wrote:As for $7M for refurbs, ouch. That's more than I would have guessed.It's a SWAG in my part that has no basis in anything else other than my perception that Amtrak would be putting something in the range of 500-1000 man hours into an overhaul along with custom parts and fabrication.
gokeefe wrote:I'll give your SWAG some respect.Greg Moore wrote:As for $7M for refurbs, ouch. That's more than I would have guessed.It's a SWAG in my part that has no basis in anything else other than my perception that Amtrak would be putting something in the range of 500-1000 man hours into an overhaul along with custom parts and fabrication.
Greg Moore wrote:Since you two aren't batting an eye at the 1000 man hours (although fabrication probably comes into play with anything Heritage), perhaps you can tell and/or link us to what this "overhaul" will consist of.gokeefe wrote:I'll give your SWAG some respect.Greg Moore wrote:As for $7M for refurbs, ouch. That's more than I would have guessed.It's a SWAG in my part that has no basis in anything else other than my perception that Amtrak would be putting something in the range of 500-1000 man hours into an overhaul along with custom parts and fabrication.
1000 man hours doesn't sound entirely unreasonable when you think about it.
afiggatt wrote:I would not expect Amtrak to exercise the CAF option for all 70 cars. The order is for bag-dorm, diner, sleeper, and baggage car. The option will only cover those car types and Amtrak really can't justify buying that many sleepers, bag-dorms, or diners for the single level routes. Flights of fantasy on here not withstanding.Why wouldn't Amtrak be able to use that many cars? I'm sure someone at 60 Mass has a very long priority list of what to do with new Viewliner-compatibles, that starts with well-trod territory here (daily Cardinal, 66/67), procedes to add sleepers to trains like the LSL and Crescent (ATL setout), then proceeds to wish-list items like new frequencies on routes. Finally, at some point, it might be easier and faster to sub in single-levels on the Cap and the CONO, and have the western routes and Auto Train cannibalize their bilevel equipment instead of waiting for a Superliner III order that may develop unforeseen delays. Certainly there's little chance of the option orders being exercised all at once. But unless CAF turns out real lemons, or Amtrak's ability to sell nearly arbitrary numbers of sleeper berths at cost-recovering prices suddenly reverses, I don't see Amtrak ever deciding it can't use more of these cars.
CComMack wrote:Before they even get to the western routes or the Auto Train I think consideration would be given to bringing back the Florida "super trains" that used to run at this time of year with consists close to or in excess of 20 cars. We could see a return of trains with multiple dining cars and six, seven or even eight sleeper cars. Trains of this size would also likely require multiple baggage cars or baggage-dorms.afiggatt wrote:I would not expect Amtrak to exercise the CAF option for all 70 cars. The order is for bag-dorm, diner, sleeper, and baggage car. The option will only cover those car types and Amtrak really can't justify buying that many sleepers, bag-dorms, or diners for the single level routes. Flights of fantasy on here not withstanding.Why wouldn't Amtrak be able to use that many cars? I'm sure someone at 60 Mass has a very long priority list of what to do with new Viewliner-compatibles, that starts with well-trod territory here (daily Cardinal, 66/67), procedes to add sleepers to trains like the LSL and Crescent (ATL setout), then proceeds to wish-list items like new frequencies on routes. Finally, at some point, it might be easier and faster to sub in single-levels on the Cap and the CONO, and have the western routes and Auto Train cannibalize their bilevel equipment instead of waiting for a Superliner III order that may develop unforeseen delays. Certainly there's little chance of the option orders being exercised all at once. But unless CAF turns out real lemons, or Amtrak's ability to sell nearly arbitrary numbers of sleeper berths at cost-recovering prices suddenly reverses, I don't see Amtrak ever deciding it can't use more of these cars.
gokeefe wrote:Before they even get to the western routes or the Auto Train I think consideration would be given to bringing back the Florida "super trains" that used to run at this time of year with consists close to or in excess of 20 cars. We could see a return of trains with multiple dining cars and six, seven or even eight sleeper cars. Trains of this size would also likely require multiple baggage cars or baggage-dorms.20+ cars? I'm sure that such consists ran before A-Day, but I've been watching the Florida trains pass through Alexandria for over 20 years, and while in the late '80's and early '90's (ie, pre standardized consists), the trains were significantly longer than now, I don't recall any that long. How many places would you need to double or triple stop with a consist that long? I don't think even the long SB platform at Alexandria could accomodate a train of that length. And that platform is about as long as you're going to find. Indeed, even the current Florida trains and the Crescent have to make two stops at the NB platform in Alexandria. I suspect that's true at lot of locations in both directions, especially as the usable portions of even older platforms are now often much shorter than in heritage days. With 20 or more cars, station dwell times would increase significantly. I agree that the east coast market is one Amtrak should seek to exploit, given the economic advantage of having multiple frequencies all the way to FL, but I'd look to add another frequency before I increased train length to 20 cars.
