CP Switchman almost got me fired

Freddy wrote:I wonder if they meant that to mean if a Car Knocker is working on or between equipment.

After I posted yesterday I figured it meant carmen ect....other than train crews. Blue flag/light has never been part of the required equipment for train crews to carry. Railroads like CSX have provided protection for trainmen in the form of "three step protection". Which is once it is requested by the conductor preferably by radio the locomotive engineer must center the reverser, generator field in off position, independent brake fully applied some locations are also suggesting an application of the automatic brake valve. Like the blue flag rule the only person who can release three step in the one who requested it.

Desertdweller, Thank's you provided plenty of information from the management perspective on delays with costs ect....

I know exactly how it works desertdweller. We put our finished and billed cars on one separate track. They are billed once we print the scale ticket. We've got quotas to fill too, when someone comes in trying to jockey cars around who walks so slow they have birds nesting on them, that takes up valuable time. When this line was ran by DME, things were a lot more easy-going, and cheaper. We are working on ways to get away from the railroad and actually have started loading trucks for transfer to a different location so they can be loaded onto cars that are served by a different railroad.

People say the conductor blew up on me that night. No, that's the main thing, he didn't say a word, he went to someone else who claimed he talked to me about it. Didn't happen.

If I were to nitpick something he was doing, then talk to his supervisor instead of him, then if it came back as something blown out of proportion, chances are I would get my butt chewed for not having my story straight.

If there was a truck speeding through the plant and I reported it and it came back that I said I talked to him about speeding and he smelled like booze too, I bet that guy would be P-O'd because speeding is something he would just be told not to do, whereas being drunk in a semi would get him fired and arrested on the spot.

I did some reaserch.

It was very confusing because it is a mix of osha, fra, and dot rules and can even vary from state to state.

obviously we all know fra only covers railroads only.

OSHA recommends that industries use some for of a sign to alert "men around or on equipment sign" The recommend it to be a "blue flag" since it is an FRA rule that ALL railroaders will understand what that means and what the procedure is before a car is pulled or track entered. Again it can be any color but blue is recommended.

now this is where it gets confusing. The industry does not need any blue flag protection by law. But once they decide to us it, the have to use it. You cant put it on one day and not us it the next unless you plan on completely not using it ever again. I work an industry that has 3 separate tracks that basically is one company that has 3 separate divisions and bosses in charge of safety. One track loads and unloads pallets of roofing, they use blue flag whenever cars our being unloaded and when cars ready to go flag comes down. I have never seen the flag NOT up in the last 6 years when cars where "NOT" ready to pull. Same exact thing on the tank track that unloads asphalt. But the track that unloads granular hoppers, never uses any warning whatsoever that indicates anything.

Crusher:

I used to work on the DM&E, your plant is probably on what once was my territory. In those days, your problem could have been resolved by a call to my office in Pierre. I would have come out and investigated the problem, and would have tried to get everyone co-operating again.

Apparently, the DM&E management saw no value in this kind of service, so pulled its field managers. If the small railroad didn't care, I see no reason why CP Rail would.

My comments and previous advice to you still stands.

COEN77,

All US railroads are required now to use the system you described. An important point is that the request to go between cars has to be acknowledged by the engineer before being acted upon. The precise steps the engineer must take vary between railroads, but have to be part of the Operating Rules and be approved by the FRA.

Some railroads call this "Three Step"; "Red Zone"; "Set and Centered"; but it all means the same thing. Not all railroads require an application of train air each time, but in any case it must be applied if needed to keep cars from moving (for instance, if the train is stopped and held by the independent brake on an ascending grade, the slack is going to all run out. The rule also forbids anyone from entering the danger zone until movement of the cars has stopped. You can't jump right in there as soon as your request is answered by the engineer).

I heard of one railroad that went so far as to require the engineer, in addition, to move the isolation switch to "Isolate" each time. That, to me, sounds like extreme overkill, but that's the way it is. Maybe he should have to pull out the reverser lever too, and put it in his pocket!

If the three tracks you work on are all owned by the same shipper, the Blue Flag Rule should be uniformly applied between them.
This is just common sense to avoid confusing the train crew. Lots of times train crews may be sent out on runs they do not normally make, and have to learn the customers as they are serving them. It really isn't supposed to work this way, but believe me, it does.

I've never seen Blue Flag protection used by an industry that used another color besides a blue flag or light. Although on private track it legally could be, it would really be a dumb idea.

On the railroads' own track, the Blue Flag is only supposed to be used on locomotive servicing or repair tracks; or car repair tracks. These are supposed to be designated in the Employees' Timetable. A platform track in a passenger station might be designated a Blue Flag track if passenger trains are inspected or serviced by Mechanical Department people during a station stop. On railroads' track, the Blue Flagged track has to be protected by switches and derails that are locked with special Blue Flag locks with keys that are issued only to the Mechanical Department. The idea is to make it nearly impossible for any train or engine to enter the track where the work is being performed. In addition to the track being flagged (in both directions if it is not a stub track) a locomotive under Blue Flag Protection will have a Blue Flag (usually actually a blue metal sign) attached to it. It will also have a Blue Flag draped over the control console as a not-so-subtle reminder.

Blue Flags are not normally carried on locomotives while in service, although I don't think it is a violation to have one on the locomotive while in service, as long as it isn't being displayed. They cannot be applied by the train crew, so there really isn't any reason to carry one.

Les

Desertdweller, I was a BLE division officer for over 20 years plus elected representive on the CSX safety committee. When "three step" was introduced for trainmen I realised everyone on the railroad had some form of protection except the locomotive engineer. Carmen & diesel shop had blue flag, MOW had red boards ect...I fought for years even used our rival NS as an example they had throttle sleeves which was placed on the throttle of the lead locomotive when an engineer was on the ground doing calender day inspections ect...It never happened. CSX finally made life difficult with still no actual protection the requirement is an engineer must apply handbrakes on every locomotive in the consist if on the ground. I resigned off the safety committee after my last attempt at a division overlap meeting realising safety committees were a joke to pacify the FRA, STB ect....one could only discuss high weeds, hard to throw switches that needed greasing, debris in the tracks pretty much nothing else.

COEN77,

You are so right! There are really no safety rules specifically written to protect engineers working between or otherwise not in the clear of their locomotives. This is an example of safety rules being written by people who have no actual experience in doing what they are regulating.

I was a locomotive engineer on Short Lines and Regionals for 16 years. A lot of my experience involved running consists in bridge traffic from Class One railroads.

On these smaller railroads, locomotive engineers are responsible for minor locomotive repairs and servicing. This can range from loading sand to changing brake shoes. If this work is done by the road crew, not the mechanical forces, Blue Flag protection is not required. Not even allowed: Blue Flags are Mechanical Department equipment. Remember, on some of these outfits, the Mechanical Department might consist of one person.

Obviously, an engineer working in between units making air connections or hooking up MU cables is in just as dangerous area as a brakeman making air connections between cars. Probably, protection for the engineer isn't considered of much importance because he is the only person allowed to move the engines. Putting a sleeve on the throttle isn't going to prevent movement if someone walks through the cab and bumps the independent brake. Isolation switches won't defeat gravity. You have to have some handbrakes tied, but only enough to prevent rolling. There is no established way of preventing other equipment from bumping into the locomotive consist, except for everyone else to be very aware of what they are doing and possible consequences.

Handbrakes have to be applied on all units in a head-end consist if the train is being left unattended, but I haven't worked where they all have to be tied to be inspected. What about a DP consist a mile back? Do you tie the brakes on a DP consist, inspect the locomotives, then knock the handbrakes off when leaving them?



I understand your frustration with Safety Meetings. A lot of times they are for window dressing. I worked on one small railroad that would only hold a safety meeting if a serious accident had happened. Then they would not have another one until the next bad incident. The employees finally formed their own safety committee out of concern for their own safety.

Les

Desertdweller, At least with a throttle sleeve or tag it would give an engineer some form of protection accidents could happen like you stated someone bumping the independent but most of the road units on CSX have desk top consoles. I think what opened my eyes was an incident where I was on the ground hooking up MU hoses, cable, and calender day ect...another LE stopped to speak to me next thing I knew my locomotive consist was moving. I chased it down the track it turns out it was a yard engineer that knocked off the handbrake on the lead motor and took off he had instructions from the yardmaster to use our power. After I saw a body on the locomotive I waited then when I confronted him we almost got into a physical fight. He stated he noticed I wasn't in between locomotives I told him he should of informed me of the move. Then it became the "what if's" it only takes a second for disaster.

The only thing that I'll add is that you might want to consider getting everything down on record. Sure, now that the dust has probably settled, it's sometimes hard to re-visit old wounds, but sometimes un-documented rumor or heresay can come back and bite you in the behind. If there is any "progressive" disciplinairy procedure there, a fuzzy "infraction" down the road might mean the difference between you keeping your job and not.