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  • CP Switchman almost got me fired

  • General discussion about railroad operations, related facilities, maps, and other resources.
General discussion about railroad operations, related facilities, maps, and other resources.

Moderator: Robert Paniagua

 #1108112  by Jeff Smith
 
I moved it once more to get exposure in ops. There's obviously a lot of "butt-covering" here. I do not mean that pejoratively; this is the environment we all work in today, i.e. "who can I hang for this?" Pity.
 #1108136  by gp80mac
 
Looks like a clash of egos to me.

Bottom line, both parties (industry and railroad) are there to serve their customers. If that is getting disrupted by one or two employees, well, it is going to get ugly. I've seen when issues escalate to where the industry and the railroad start feuding. It is never a good thing.
 #1108239  by Chicagorail1
 
Blue flag protection is the NUMBER 1 rule above ALL others when working on or around equipment, It is there to save YOUR life. It is so imporatant as per FEDERAL LAW, i cant even touch the blue flag even if you our standing there and tell me to take it off and hand it to you... thats how serious BLUE FLAG protection is.....


Not using blue flag protection when being around equipment is the largest infraction outside of conductor and engine a railroad employee can get.

When an industry does not have a blue flag up that uses blue flag protection, that tells me no one is on or near the equipment and i can pull the cars once i do a safety inspection. The conductor is not looking for a person, they are looking for problems with the cars.... When there is no blue flag that means no body is even close to the equipment. Thats why the conductor went nuts........
 #1108250  by Chicagorail1
 
This is from the FRA :


The use of blue signals and derails by industries served by railroads as called for under Department
of Labor, Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) and Hazardous Materials
regulations for the protection of industry employees involved in the loading and unloading of
railroad cars, is not part of Subpart B- Blue Signal Protection for Workmen. However, once a
blue signal is displayed on tracks or on rolling equipment, regardless under whose authority that
signal is displayed, railroad employees must respect the signal as though it was displayed in
accordance with the requirements of this regulation. Blue signals displayed by industry employees
must not be removed by railroad employees. Also, when a railroad employee is working on,
under or between rolling equipment inside an industry or plant served by a railroad, blue signal
protection must be established.
 #1108261  by Gadfly
 
Crusher,

Few things make me enraged more than to be accused of something I didn't do! However, in this case, the only issue I would bring up is the behavior of the railroad crewman that is smarttalking you. Let your supervisor handle it with the railroad. He, according to your post, already knows your competency on the job. YOU are THEIR customer, not the other way round, and their job is to please your company. While this certainly, as I said, would truly piss me off, it may be best to leave it go. If there continues to be accusations, back talk, belittling behaviors on the part of the crew that services your industry, then I would mention it to your boss. For me, it would be difficult for me not to tell this switchman to go **** himself!

GF
 #1108365  by crusher
 
I haven't seen the guy since this incident. I told my partner he could deal with him when he comes in. I don't wanna see him or talk to him.

I kinda wonder if my shift supervisor, who is a good man but can be very growly if he needs to, put the fear of God into the switchman when he confronted him that night. After they spoke and my supervisor told me I was cool I went to check hand brakes and as the train was leaving the conductor yelled after me to let me know he was leaving, "that's all I got for ya, have a good one" in a much different tone of voice than he usually speaks.

Kinda wonder if that dude thinks I'm a cocky, brash, pain in the a$$ kid. First time I saw him I asked him (very politely) to spot a car on our scale, he snapped, "I always do!" I questioned him why he was locking up a brake before moving a car, he snapped "I've been doing this ten years, I know what I'm doing!" Okay dude, fair enough, sorry you had to come here tonight, why don't you walk a little slower when you are working here, it's not like we depend on you or anything. I worked there for four years previously and have met lots of conductors, even had one take me inside the locomotive for a tour, never met one so slow-moving and grumpy as this guy.
 #1108451  by COEN77
 
Chicagorail1 wrote:This is from the FRA :


The use of blue signals and derails by industries served by railroads as called for under Department
of Labor, Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) and Hazardous Materials
regulations for the protection of industry employees involved in the loading and unloading of
railroad cars, is not part of Subpart B- Blue Signal Protection for Workmen. However, once a
blue signal is displayed on tracks or on rolling equipment, regardless under whose authority that
signal is displayed, railroad employees must respect the signal as though it was displayed in
accordance with the requirements of this regulation. Blue signals displayed by industry employees
must not be removed by railroad employees. Also, when a railroad employee is working on,
under or between rolling equipment inside an industry or plant served by a railroad, blue signal
protection must be established.
So this states Blue flag protection isn't required in industries. That if an industry does have blue flag protection then it will fall under the requirements of this regulation. I'm a little baffled on the last part that it requires "if a railroad employee is working under or between rolling equipment inside an industry or plant blue signal protection must be established".
 #1108553  by Desertdweller
 
I've come across situations like this many times during my career.

The reason the FRA "suggests" that industries use the Blue Flag Rule to protect their own employees is that FRA authority does not extend to private trackage. So the FRA cannot mandate that private businesses use the Blue Flag Rule. But it is an excellent safety rule, and no doubt has saved many lives on both industry and railroad-owned track.

In my own experience as a Conductor and as an Operations Manager, I've witnessed more than a few acts of startling stupidity committed by customers on their own tracks. I've received orders to pull loaded grain cars from elevators when grain inspectors were still walking atop the cars. I've seen an elevator assistant manager set handbrakes on free-rolling cars by standing between the rails in front of the rolling cars, and hopping up on the end of the cars.

As long as this type of behavior does not impact my train crews, I would not turn anybody in to their boss. It isn't my or the railroad's business. I do have an obligation to try to prevent individuals from getting killed, even if by their own stupidity. So if I witness this stuff, I'll talk to the individual and try to convince them not to do this (and why). If I see a massive disregard for personal safety, then maybe I'd go to the supervisor.

I've also offered (when I've had the authority to do so) to give a short seminar on safe behavior around rail equipment, but never had any takers.

If your supervisor was willing to cut corners on safety rule compliance in order to expedite production (or for any other reason) he is at fault, and could be held responsible for injuries or death resulting from it. If you go along with it, you own a share of the consequences, too.

In matters of safety. either the Conductor or the Engineer can nix a move. I've only had to do this once. I was a conductor on a train that served a number of grain elevators. One of the elevators shipped corn to another one on the same line. They were both owned by the same company.
The crew of the shipping elevator thought up a sick "joke" to pull on the crew at the receiving elevator. They would find the grossest thing available and tie it to the end of a loaded covered hopper next to the brake wheel. This started out with items of garbage, and escalated to dead animals.

The last straw was a dead possum. I left the car and told my boss why. I told him I didn't think it was right to require me or anyone else on my crew to have to put up with this, especially considering the car was carrying a food product. My boss made a call to some higher-up in the elevator company, and the problem went away.

Do you have a Safety Committee at work? It might be good to suggest to your boss that your plant adapt Blue Flag protection for your fellow employees. I'd bet that even the railroad or someone from the UTU would be willing to give a short talk and question-and-answer session about how this works. If they won't do this, try contacting the FRA or AAR for assistance. I really don't think any of these groups would turn you down for a request to help make your workplace safer.

Ultimately, you are responsible for your own safety. I think fall protection comes under the authority of OSHA or your State Industrial Safety Department. This is a fairly new concept for grain elevators, when I started railroading, fall safety meant just not falling off.

You need to be aware, too, that railroad operating employees are forbidden to climb on top of railroad cars. Certain classes of non-operating employees are allowed to do this for specific duties. For example, carmen are allowed to to inspect and repair roofs of cars. Clerical employees are allowed to in order to check and record seal numbers, or at least could when I worked in that craft.

Les
 #1108558  by Desertdweller
 
The rule about providing Blue Flag Protection on industry track for railroad employees is indeed for the protection of car knockers.
A lot of car movement on industrial tracks does not involve train crews. Cars are moved by gravity, car movers, tractors and hawsers, etc. While the FRA cannot control actions of employees of private industries on their own tracks, they do control the actions of railroad employees on private tracks.

Railroad employees working between cars do not require Blue Flag protection if the cars are being handled by a train crew. Railroad train crew members can go between cars, for example, to make air connections between cars waiting to be picked up, or to adjust coupler knuckles or lift pins. In that case, sufficient protection is established by clear communication between crew members and a clear understanding of work to be done, and positive acknowledgement from the engineer that a crew member is "going between", and when "in the clear". It is the conductor's responsibility to communicate with plant employees that train crew members will be working on that track.

I think Blue Flag Protection is an excellent way of avoiding injuries and deaths, but if used on private track, the customer must understand how it works: Nobody enters the track until the flag is pulled; the flag must be pulled by whoever posted it; railroad crews cannot remove blue flags or ignore them by direction of anyone.

Les
 #1108563  by Gadfly
 
It is sometimes hard to talk to the public about safety issues. We once had a very pregnant lady crawl under a train (pedestrian) that was stopped at the throat of the yard. My supervisor saw her (as well as I) and attempted to explain how bad an idea it was to crawl under trains when they could start up at any moment. MAN! Did she ever go ballistic! She cussed us out but good, telling us to mind our own GD ****ing business, blah, blah, blah! I pity that poor child born to someone like that! :(
GF
 #1108617  by Desertdweller
 
Yeah, GF. I could write a book (maybe we could collaborate on one).

When I worked for the Milwaukee Road in Madison, WI, we still had a yard there. Several tracks ran parallel to each other in front of the passenger station. There were no crossings west of Washington Ave. for a mile or so. so it was a convenient place to build or switch out trains.

One nice day I can remember our yard crew building a train on these tracks. Cars were being kicked east on these tracks to assemble a train in blocks. The east end of the cuts were probably a hundred feet from the crossing, and were tied down, but would still bump back a couple feet when a group of cars were kicked onto the west end of the cuts.

I was a yard clerk then, out making lists showing how the cars were being placed in the train. I noticed a man and who was apparently his little boy, standing between the rails immediately behind the coupler on the east end of one of the cuts. He looked like he was trying to explain to the kid how a coupler works.

I was able to get them off the track before the next car slammed into that cut and Daddy got whacked in the chest.

Les
 #1108664  by gp80mac
 
Someone has to be the grown-up in this situation.

The train crew may have been a prick that night, but purposely blocking/delaying the train crew from doing its work isn't much better. That train crew probably has other customers to serve, and can't wait around forever for you to allow them to work. Delay them too much, and they may have to skip your industry that night - and I don't think you will want to answer for the additional charges assessed because of that.
 #1108734  by crusher
 
They don't act like they have other customers to serve with as slow as they move.

I don't think they'd skip us, I believe they have a contract. If things take to long at our plant and their shift comes to an end they just park the engine and call a taxi and bring in a new crew.

Today they were four hours late.
 #1108755  by Desertdweller
 
Believe me, Crusher, if they think you are intentionally delaying them, they'll skip you.

What would likely happen is the Conductor would call his boss (the Trainmaster or Assistant Trainmaster) and explain the situation, asking for permission to run the work. The call would be made taking several factors into account: the time remaining for the crew to complete their run; the availability of a relief crew; the priority of switching your plant verses serving customers who are actually ready for a switch; whether or not he thinks you are jerking his guys around. If he decides to send the crew on to the next customer and leave your work, he knows he is going to get a call from your boss. And he is going to tell your boss why the cars were not picked up. This will come back to you like a boomerang.

Why should the railroad have to call out a relief crew just because a shipper wants to play games with them? Have you any idea what that costs the railroad? You don't just call one guy: train crews go on or off duty as complete crews. Crews that have to be relieved on line require transportation and sometimes lodging away from home. Deadhead overtime. Maybe a main line blocked by a train waiting for a crew. The expense to the railroad could easily top a thousand dollars.

I doubt if you are aware of how a car release works. Legally, a car cannot be pulled from a plant until that company releases it to the railroad. And it cannot be released until it is ready to be pulled. If it is released before it is ready to be pulled, and has to be respotted, it and every car that has to be respotted is subject to a set-back charge. This costs YOUR company several hundred dollars. So if the car is released, it had better be ready to go. If it is released (billed) and not ready to pull, it is also subject to a break-bill charge that can run to several hundred dollars. If it is a railroad-owned car, and the free time period for loading/unloading is exceeded, it is subject to a demurrage charge for each additional day not released. You do not want to be the person responsible for that happening, or you are very apt to be fired for real.

Don't think that "because there is a contract with the railroad requiring them to take the cars" it means that the train crew has to wait until you are damn well ready. If the car is released, that is an order to pull it. The train crew will wait a reasonable amount of time for you to make sure the doors are shut and loading equipment is in the clear. They have other customers who are expecting service and who will be ready, and they also have families they would like to get home to after work just like people who aren't railroaders.

Been there, done that.

Les