• Oil train disaster in Lac-Mégantic, Québec 07-06-2013

  • Discussion of present-day CM&Q operations, as well as discussion of predecessors Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway (MMA) and Bangor & Aroostook Railroad (BAR).
Discussion of present-day CM&Q operations, as well as discussion of predecessors Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway (MMA) and Bangor & Aroostook Railroad (BAR).

Moderator: MEC407

  by KEN PATRICK
 
how can something so obvious be 'tilted'? the engineer will do time for 'reckless endangerment', mm&a management will get probation and criminal records. cp/irving/bakken will get fiscal penalties. world rail shareholders will individually be liable for pain & suffering awards. there is only the stark reality that the engineer unilaterally decided his 'rest' was more important than remaining with a burning loco. was his 'rest' worth his legal expense? this was a stupid rail operation at best. ken patrick
  by JimBoylan
 
KEN PATRICK wrote:there is only the stark reality that the engineer unilaterally decided his 'rest' was more important than remaining with a burning loco.
Published interviews with the taxicab driver claim that there was NO fire when he left with the engineer.
  by nomis
 
JimBoylan wrote:
KEN PATRICK wrote:there is only the stark reality that the engineer unilaterally decided his 'rest' was more important than remaining with a burning loco.
Published interviews with the taxicab driver claim that there was NO fire when he left with the engineer.
Not to mention, Canadian HoS may have been violated by the Engineer exceeding his HoS & a locomotive malfunction is not a reason to violate HoS.

If you think you can do better, there may be an election for Imperial Emperor of North America, there you can enact all your plans via the FRA and Transport Canada. :-D
  by mwhite
 
KEN PATRICK wrote:there is only the stark reality that the engineer unilaterally decided his 'rest' was more important than remaining with a burning loco.
This is not at all the case. The HOS rules DO NOT allow you to make the decision to violate the rule except in very exceptional cases. Had he done so, he could have faced time off from the railroad and potentially be fined personally (although admittedly I don't know what the penalties are in Canada). This engineer would have to have had some amazing abilities to see into the future the series of events that occurred after he has REQUIRED to take his mandatory rest.
  by Ridgefielder
 
KEN PATRICK wrote: world rail shareholders will individually be liable for pain & suffering awards.
No, they won't. That's the entire point of a limited liability corporation. You as a shareholder can't be held liable for the actions of the corporation. If Burkhardt winds up being personally liable for this it's going to be in his capacity as management at the MM&A, not as a shareholder of the company.
  by charlie6017
 
Ken, I swear you must have to be one of Earth's most clueless people.

I really do believe that you are only here to troll people........nobody can be this truly
dumb and be sincere about it. There's no way.

Charlie
  by KEN PATRICK
 
charlie: get some fresh air. you obviously missed the fact that lawsuits were filed in illinois. why? 805 ILCS 180/13-10 provides the answer. google it. in general llc's do not protect members from criminal acts such as this.
and i'm not 'trolling' when i point out that the slavish posts defending hos as the holy grail are amazingly dumb. the term 'sheep' comes to mind when i consider railroad people. how can anyone defend the engineer in this ? break his hos? this doesn't pass the straight face test. i can picture the jurie's reactions when this silly concept is offered in his defence. there is no way this train should have been left unattended. ken patrick
  by charlie6017
 
KEN PATRICK wrote:charlie: get some fresh air.
There is plenty of fresh air here, sir.

I think it's pretty safe to say that many other folk's responses to your often incessant babbling speak volumes.

I enjoy good, spirited discussion but come on.

Charlie
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
M r. Patrick, what do you think should have happened at the scene to have avoided this tragedy?
  by Dewoc19
 
Ken, trains get left unattended all the times, now rssm trains us another story but T&E employees are only physically allowed to move a train for 12 hours, they can be on duty for endless hours but after 10 the train can move no more, once they put off its a minimum of 10 hours before they are allowed to be called again and they are not responsible to answer the phone, so if something happened after he put off, not his problem.... call another crew or whoever but yeah the HOS argument is legit, get a clue or let the grown ups that actually are in the know have the conversation
  by KEN PATRICK
 
my 'babbling' points out flawed railroad thinking- as supported by some of the posters herein. it is flawed thinking to leave a train unattended. trains should be constantly moving. there should be personnel standing by to make that happen. hos rules should be broken to effect smooth train movement. fines are small in relation to the money wasted with stalled trains.i'm thinking that personnel management reflects years ago union silliness. rules are the hobglobins of small men's minds.
had i been managing mma rail operations this tragedy would not have happened. hos-governed 'crew' change? new 'crew' standing by. some time differences? departing crew dumps the air but remains in the cab on overtime pay until physically replaced. simple. 'penny-wise' thinking led to millions of losses. who can justify this stupidity? ken patrick
  by MBTA1016
 
Dewoc19 wrote: get a clue or let the grown ups that actually are in the know have the conversation
^^^^^^This should be should be cross posted into every forum.


What's the status on how the town is rebuilding? It will be intersting to see what the report says when they release in a year or so. Yes I know it could be later then that.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Patrick, I will agree with one point that you have made, and that is the locomotive fire certainly rose to the level of emergency.

While earlier in the topic there is a post defining emergency with respect to Canadian HOS, however the more accepted definition of 'Emergency' means a situation in which property or human life is in jeopardy and the prompt summoning of aid is essential. 'Le département des pompiers Nantes' did respond, but the response was not complete as there was no person on the scene qualified on train handling. As such, to have rousted the Engineer and transport him to the scene would have been within provisions of HOS. However, the Engineer's rest would have been broken and a new ten hour clock would be set. He likely would not have been rested until late afternoon.

Something tells me that in the apparent 'see no evil hear no evil' culture pervasive at Rosemont, somebody would have 'had to do a lil talkin'. Nevermind that an incident rising to the level of Chatsworth would have been avoided.

Rulebooks that give wide discretion to crews in tying down trains will be rewritten both here and 'up there', and as a result the practice will become far more burdensome. Mr. Patrick is correct in suggesting that the practice of tying down trains rather than establishing crew districts with the intent of having a rested crew relieving that which is about to expire ('die') will be subject to review.
  by Freddy
 
On the Brotherhood of Railroad Signalman's site you might be able to access the 3rd quarter issue where on page 17 the article is titled FRA issues Emergency Order and Safety Advisory
to Prevent Unintended Train Movement. In it, the new rules and guidelines are outlined.
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