March 29, 1957 - The end of the NYO&W

I do not have any documentation on this move but the photo in the Mohowski Book states April, 1957 and it shows the 9 engines on the O & W at Kingston. This begs the question how did the other NW-2's that went to the New York Central move? I don't ever recall seeing any mention of the others that ended up on the Central.
Noel Weaver

Regarding the balance of the NW-2's that went to the NYC, all I ever found out was that they did not go via the Kingston Branch but the Erie took them. Where I don't know, but I believe all were on NYC by the 3rd week of April. I also think that they were leased at this time until after the sale in June.

What I am not entirely sure of is the 111, 112, 113. They went to the UV RR but I don't know 100% if they spent a little time on NYC first or were left in Middletown. About January 1959 UV took them to Bridgewater and they went to Binghamton on the DL&W to points west from East Binghamton Yard. One was painted Salzburg Orange and Cream and the other two were still pure O&W. Maybe someone who reads this can shed more light on it. Of these three, two eventually went to the ROCK and one to NP. NYC / PC / CR got all the rest.

Just a guess on my part but it would not have been a difficult move for these engines to go via the Erie. They could have moved them from Middletown to Newburgh via the Erie's Newburgh Branch and turn them over to the New York Central at Newburgh.
Noel Weaver

I have been reading the pages (I printed them) from the last days of the O & W until I think I am beginning to read the print right off of them, fascinating beyond belief. I have some remarks to add to the remarks that have been added to this topic:
X803 mentioned here might have picked up their train at Maybrook or at least much of it but I think the O & W crews worked out of Middletown, I don't think any railroad except for the New Haven had crews based in Maybrook. O & W out of Middletown on a turnaround basis or maybe light to Maybrook for their train north. The L & H crews were based in Warwick and the Erie at Port Jervis. Mention was made of X805 the last train into Middletown changing crews at Cadosia, maybe only the conductor and engineer were changed there because on practically all railroads the trainmen and firemen did not have to be qualified on the physical characteristics with some exceptions and I doubt if any existed here. As for the train orders, the rules on the O & W in the territory where signals existed seem to me to be a modified automatic block signal system rather than a manual block signal system. Authority for movement was by train order as no regular trains remained after 1953 and train orders were required even in the signal territory. This was not uncommon in the industry, the New Haven required train orders on some lines or in portions of some lines even in signal territory for movement. Blocking on the other hand was probably by automatic signal indications at least in portions of the signal territory south of Cadosia. The sidings in this territory for the most part had spring switches at each end and at one end the switch was lined for the siding so at some places all northbound trains ran through the siding and at other places all southbound trains ran through the siding. I suspect the dispatcher controlled the signals at the ends of these sidings. I guess from that respect it could be considered a controlled manual block system. The mention in the Middletown paper of a half dozen cars remaining in Sullivan County is something that I do not think happened. The newspaper writer of that article was riding X123 from Middletown to Monticello and Port Jervis and may have heard that from the crew BUT X114 from Cadosia to Middletown did not get to Summitville until after X123 departed for Monticello and Port Jervis so the crew on X123 did not have eye contact with the job from Cadosia. X114 left Cadosia with just the caboose but arrived Middletown with 2 loads and 10 empties and these are probably the cars from Sullivan County that were mentioned in the newspaper.
I have some O & W timetables both employee and public in my collection. My oldest employee timetable dates to the summer of 1920 and my newest is the last one in 1954. One interesting note is timetable no. 66 dated June 17, 1945 which was in "Eastern War Time", this is the only timetable in my collection that I am aware of which was in "Eastern War Time" and not "Eastern Standard Time". In 1920 there were 16 first class trains in each direction through Cornwall plus a couple of second class trains as well, one busy railroad.
Maybe I'll come up with more because I am still reading the timetables as well as the notes.
Noel Weaver

Congress passed the War Time Act on 20 January 1942. War Time was, in effect, daylight savings time and it was in effect year round. The War Time Act was ended by congress effective 30 September 1945.

TB Diamond wrote:Congress passed the War Time Act on 20 January 1942. War Time was, in effect, daylight savings time and it was in effect year round. The War Time Act was ended by congress effective 30 September 1945.

Agree but the NYO&W is the only example of a timetable from any railroad in my collection that I was able to find a timetable actually stating that times shown were "Eastern War Time". All of the New York Central and New Haven timetables for example in my collection were still on "Eastern Standard Time". I am not saying that no other railroad used the phrase "Eastern War Time" on their timetables but it was at least not common.
Noel Weaver

If memory serves, the Lehigh Valley Railroad published some passenger time tables that showed "War Time".

TB Diamond wrote:If memory serves, the Lehigh Valley Railroad published some passenger time tables that showed "War Time".

Maybe and maybe the Long Island as well but I will have to dig hard to see if I have anything that can shed light on this.
Noel Weaver

As I recall, radio stations regularly announced the time as Eastern War Time, but I can't recall what the railroads showed on the public timetables. I think I've seen some Official Guides from the period that say simply Eastern Time, but I'll look when I get a chance.

Here is another "tidbit" on the O &W. I have a O & W rulebook dated May 15, 1913 and amazingly enough that same rulebook remained in effect from 1913 until their final runs in March, 1957. I know this because the last timetable has reference to this same rulebook in it where they made some changes to their rules in the employee timetable. Making changes to rules has been common in the industry through the years but keeping the same rulebook for well over 40 years was not particularly common in the industry. There are some very interesting and very old practices in that book that I am sure were not in use on the O & W nor anywhere else in later years.
Noel Weaver

ExCon90 wrote:As I recall, radio stations regularly announced the time as Eastern War Time, but I can't recall what the railroads showed on the public timetables. I think I've seen some Official Guides from the period that say simply Eastern Time, but I'll look when I get a chance.

A quick-and-dirty check of the May 1945 Official Guide shows that apparently each railroad decided for itself how to designate time, about equally divided (at least in the east) between Eastern Time and Eastern Standard Time, with no mention of Eastern War Time, as it was commonly spoken of around then. For example, the NYC showed Standard Time, while the PRR (as befitted the Standard Railroad of the World) called it Eastern Standard Time.

Another point about the O&W that surprised me was that even then it only had one daily round trip, from Cornwall to Walton in the morning, returning about an hour later to Cornwall. Passengers had to change at Cornwall to West Shore trains to and from Weehawken. Also, in 1945 the O&W maintained off-line freight sales offices in Boston, Buffalo, Chicago, Detroit, Kansas City, New Haven, Pittsburgh, and San Francisco.

ExCon90 wrote:

ExCon90 wrote:As I recall, radio stations regularly announced the time as Eastern War Time, but I can't recall what the railroads showed on the public timetables. I think I've seen some Official Guides from the period that say simply Eastern Time, but I'll look when I get a chance.

A quick-and-dirty check of the May 1945 Official Guide shows that apparently each railroad decided for itself how to designate time, about equally divided (at least in the east) between Eastern Time and Eastern Standard Time, with no mention of Eastern War Time, as it was commonly spoken of around then. For example, the NYC showed Standard Time, while the PRR (as befitted the Standard Railroad of the World) called it Eastern Standard Time.

Another point about the O&W that surprised me was that even then it only had one daily round trip, from Cornwall to Walton in the morning, returning about an hour later to Cornwall. Passengers had to change at Cornwall to West Shore trains to and from Weehawken. Also, in 1945 the O&W maintained off-line freight sales offices in Boston, Buffalo, Chicago, Detroit, Kansas City, New Haven, Pittsburgh, and San Francisco.

I do not think a change of trains was necessary at Cornwall. I have a good number of both emploee and public timetables over a period of years and they all show the O & W trains running through to Weehawken. I have nearly all of the River Division employee timetables from these years as well and they all show O & W trains beween Cornwall and Weehawken.
Noel Weaver

That's what puzzled me -- I thought they ran through right up until the end -- so I checked the West Shore listing in the same Guide, and the times shown in the O&W listing for Cornwall and Weehawken correspond exactly with West Shore trains operating to and from Kingston and beyond; also, the O&W listing shows arrival and departure times at Cornwall, with a generous interval between. One of the WS trains (I think the weekday evening eastbound from Albany, but I won't be able to check the Guide again until Wednesday) shows conditional stops at almost all stations between Cornwall and Weehawken to discharge passengers originating on the O&W, and the table explicitly states that a change is necessary at Cornwall. Could this have been a wartime austerity measure, do you think? The table has an effective date in December 1944 and is still in the May 1945 Guide; I can't believe they didn't start running through trains again in June or July.

Went through my collection of O&W public timetables and in regard to the easy part of the thread found that all the time tables between 5/15/42 and 6/17/45 - 12 issues although there may be a couple more - all state "Eastern War Time." The Time table for 9-30-45 - the first one after VJ Day - returns to stating "Eastern Standard Time". After 7-2-46, those time tables issued during a Daylight Saving TIme period state: " Time shown in this folder is EASTERN STANDARD TIME. For example when it is 11:00AM Eastern Standard Time it is 12:00 Noon Daylight Saving time." The O&W like most railroads at the time was loath to admit Daylight Saving Time really existed. Now for the strange part. The two time tables effective 12-3-44 and 1-1-45 both state passengers to and from New York must transfer to West Shore trains at Cornwall. All the other timetables and the next one I have, issued 6-17-45, reference O&W trains stopping at West Shore stations to let off or pick up passengers for stops on the O&W. This had been standard from the beginning and then continued to the end of passenger service in l953. Like most, I had always assumed this was the case. I can't recall ever hearing about O&W passenger trains terminating at Cornwall and there does not appear to be any reason for it I can think of. The biggest part of the war build up, on the East Coast at least, was over and the mass return of troops would await the end of the war. Perhaps this was an attempt to save terminal costs at Weehawken during the winter when passenger counts would have been small and was not repeated although the ICC rules of the day might not have allowed such an experiment. Hopefully some light can be shed on this.

Old & Weary wrote:Went through my collection of O&W public timetables and in regard to the easy part of the thread found that all the time tables between 5/15/42 and 6/17/45 - 12 issues although there may be a couple more - all state "Eastern War Time." The Time table for 9-30-45 - the first one after VJ Day - returns to stating "Eastern Standard Time". After 7-2-46, those time tables issued during a Daylight Saving TIme period state: " Time shown in this folder is EASTERN STANDARD TIME. For example when it is 11:00AM Eastern Standard Time it is 12:00 Noon Daylight Saving time." The O&W like most railroads at the time was loath to admit Daylight Saving Time really existed. Now for the strange part. The two time tables effective 12-3-44 and 1-1-45 both state passengers to and from New York must transfer to West Shore trains at Cornwall. All the other timetables and the next one I have, issued 6-17-45, reference O&W trains stopping at West Shore stations to let off or pick up passengers for stops on the O&W. This had been standard from the beginning and then continued to the end of passenger service in l953. Like most, I had always assumed this was the case. I can't recall ever hearing about O&W passenger trains terminating at Cornwall and there does not appear to be any reason for it I can think of. The biggest part of the war build up, on the East Coast at least, was over and the mass return of troops would await the end of the war. Perhaps this was an attempt to save terminal costs at Weehawken during the winter when passenger counts would have been small and was not repeated although the ICC rules of the day might not have allowed such an experiment. Hopefully some light can be shed on this.

This could well be, I don't have that many O & W timetables. I do have practically all of the River Division timetables from much of that period and I need to do some digging. Not tonight though, I am headed out to watch a few trains on a up and coming railroad tonight, the Florida East Coast. I might get a chance to pull out the NYC stuff this weekend. Stay tuned.
Noel Weaver