Railroad Forums
Jets
- Discussion relating to the NH and its subsidiaries (NYW&B, Union Freight Railroad, Connecticut Company, steamship lines, etc.). up until its 1969 inclusion into the Penn Central merger. This forum is also for the discussion of efforts to preserve former New Haven equipment, artifacts and its history. You may also wish to visit www.nhrhta.org for more information.
by Tom Curtin
. . . and after 1960, when the New Haven had only the jets and the FL9s to run into New York, they infinitely preferred using the jets on the Penn jobs and would do so as long as one was ready to go when needed. It's a pretty good uphill pull from Harold (in Woodside, Queens, NY) up to Hell Gate Bridge, and those Penn jobs tended to be long heavy trains, and the FL9s had difficulty keeping time on those runs.
Great performers those jets were --- God, I loved to ride behind them!! --- but they were not well engineered, very maintenance-intensive and difficult to keep in service. They were particularly prone to electrical fires.
Great performers those jets were --- God, I loved to ride behind them!! --- but they were not well engineered, very maintenance-intensive and difficult to keep in service. They were particularly prone to electrical fires.
by Noel Weaver
Tom Curtin wrote:. . . and after 1960, when the New Haven had only the jets and the FL9s to run into New York, they infinitely preferred using the jets on the Penn jobs and would do so as long as one was ready to go when needed. It's a pretty good uphill pull from Harold (in Woodside, Queens, NY) up to Hell Gate Bridge, and those Penn jobs tended to be long heavy trains, and the FL9s had difficulty keeping time on those runs.Electrical fires and anything else that could fail.
Great performers those jets were --- God, I loved to ride behind them!! --- but they were not well engineered, very maintenance-intensive and difficult to keep in service. They were particularly prone to electrical fires.
They were a complicated engine for their day (mid 1950's). Sometimes
one would just quit and we could not find a reason but it just would not
work.
The maintenance was not very good on these engines and often they
looked it too. Weak batteries were sometimes a problem with them too,
this would result in difficulty trying to change over.
Engine crews were somewhat limited in what we could do with these things
on the road when they decided they did not want to go any farther. There
was a lot of electricity in them and we want to live to do another trip.
They were good when they were running right but sometimes were were
not running right and then.........
Noel Weaver
by eddiebear
The Jets were sidetracked in favor of GG-1s on Penn Station jobs because the Gs could run through to Washington from New Haven, but the Jets, built for short New Haven hauls, had insufficient boiler capacity to heat a train all the way to Washington. It didn't make any sense to run a Jet to Penn Station, uncouple and put a G on for the rest of the run. GG-1s could run through.
In summer of 1966 I went to Florida and rode the Senator, Boston to New York. At New Haven, FL-9s were removed and a Jet coupled on. We were on-time until now. Just sat there and original Jet was uncoupled and another one attached. Left NHV 20 min. late. Ran only at moderate speed Track 3 to Stamford because of Stamford & Bridgeport stops. Took off at Stamford, flew through the New Rochelle Junction interlocking. You could not stand on the approach to Hell Gate Bridge. We were flying. We were on-time into Penn Station.
In summer of 1966 I went to Florida and rode the Senator, Boston to New York. At New Haven, FL-9s were removed and a Jet coupled on. We were on-time until now. Just sat there and original Jet was uncoupled and another one attached. Left NHV 20 min. late. Ran only at moderate speed Track 3 to Stamford because of Stamford & Bridgeport stops. Took off at Stamford, flew through the New Rochelle Junction interlocking. You could not stand on the approach to Hell Gate Bridge. We were flying. We were on-time into Penn Station.
by Noel Weaver
When the GG-1's started running through from Washington to New Haven
the railroad issued instructions to take water at Philadelphia for the steam
generator and often they did. They could have done the same with the
jets but the jets were not really in shape for such a long run. The steam
arrangement on the jets was not at all desireable either. Trains on the
NY - WASH end of the railroad were generally long and in cold weather
they needed more steam and on a jet that meant both steam generators.
The generator in the head cab was unpleasant at best and could be
downright dangerous at time with smoke, gas and fumes. It sometimes
got so bad that we would shut down the generator and try to heat the
train with one generator. On a long train, the rear cars could be pretty
chilly.
The jets could have been a decent engine except for the very poor design
and poor maintenance.
Noel Weaver
the railroad issued instructions to take water at Philadelphia for the steam
generator and often they did. They could have done the same with the
jets but the jets were not really in shape for such a long run. The steam
arrangement on the jets was not at all desireable either. Trains on the
NY - WASH end of the railroad were generally long and in cold weather
they needed more steam and on a jet that meant both steam generators.
The generator in the head cab was unpleasant at best and could be
downright dangerous at time with smoke, gas and fumes. It sometimes
got so bad that we would shut down the generator and try to heat the
train with one generator. On a long train, the rear cars could be pretty
chilly.
The jets could have been a decent engine except for the very poor design
and poor maintenance.
Noel Weaver
by Howiew
I remember reading a article sometime ago that the Jets were designed for the short NY-NH runs and not for long high speed runs found on the Pennsy. The article stated that the Pennsy borrowed a Jet for a NY to Washington run and it took awhile for the rectifiers to cool down before the return trip to New York.
Train Yourself To Relax...Ride The New Haven RR! The New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad! Serving New York and the Great Industrial States of Massachusetts, Rhode Island & Connecticut!
by Nasadowsk
I don't think the Jet's design can be blamed on GE too much - it WAS one of the first rectifier locos made by anyone anywhere. The ignitron technology of the time was a bit weird in that the cooling water contacted the propulsion circuitry directly, requiring amazingly pure water and precautions to avoid corrosion issues. There was also the temperature issue - the tubes operated only within a narrow band, and each tube could be a bit different.
Not only that, but GE was cramming it all into an amazingly small area (recall that the E2C E3B units were significantly larger and only single cab), AND grafting the equipment in to make it dual system.
I'm not sure how many tubes it had but it was likely quite a few (12?), and those things were large beasts with a lot of support gear that had to be on them (anode heaters, anode radiators, themostats, insulators, water piping).
Remember that in 1955, power electronics was barely an industry, and there were few examples to go on.
Not only that, but GE was cramming it all into an amazingly small area (recall that the E2C E3B units were significantly larger and only single cab), AND grafting the equipment in to make it dual system.
I'm not sure how many tubes it had but it was likely quite a few (12?), and those things were large beasts with a lot of support gear that had to be on them (anode heaters, anode radiators, themostats, insulators, water piping).
Remember that in 1955, power electronics was barely an industry, and there were few examples to go on.
by Bill West
Phil, this is NH’s ignitron roster and equipment:
100 NH 4400-88, 4670-76, 5110-13/ PC 300-99 1954 Pullman “washboard” MU Westinghouse
4 WL653B Ignitron tubes (non RR, about 4”), 13ft cooling hose leads mentioned.
4 1451A motors (similar to NYCTA) transom mount 400hp 1560vac circuit
AC/DC service resistor control.
One MU converted to GE silicon rectifiers in 1961, 2 models of diode tried
10 NH 370-79 EP5/ PC/CR 4970-77 E40 1955 GE “jet”
12 8” GL6504 Ignitron tubes (designed for RR use)
6 752 motors (Alco-GE’s long running standard) 4000hp 2558vac circuit
AC/DC service transformer tapping control
12 VGN 130-41 EL-C/ N&W 230-41/ NH 300-10 EF4/ PC/CR 4600-10 E33 1956-57 GE “brick”
12 12” GL6878 Ignitron tubes (designed for RR use) larger size applied for freight duty
distilled water cooling, methanol anti freeze
6 752 motors 3300hp 2158vac circuit
AC only service transformer tapping control, half tap notching available
I collected this from AIEE Transactions. If you have access to a big city or university library here are the dates for looking up copies, just check their online catalogues:
AIEE Transactions July 1955 “Ignitron Multiple Unit Cars…”
NH MU’s, has photos, schematic
PRR 1914 and 1949 experimentals mentioned in discussion section
AIEE Transactions July 1955
Pg 169 consideration of rectifier effects in a loco
Pg 176 consideration of rectifier effects on 752 motors
-addition of traction return brushes to bypass axle journals and commutator flash rings
AIEE Transactions July 1955 “Rectifier Locomotives for the New York, New Haven…”
EP5 has photos, schematic and simple plan/elevation
AIEE Transactions May 1957 “The Electric System of the Rectifier-Type Locomotives…”
EL-C has photos, schematic and simple plan
AIEE Transactions September 1957 “Ignitron Tubes for Rectifier Locomotives”
EP5 EL-C E44 RR refinements, has photos, also cross section drawing of EL-C/E44 tube
AIEE Transactions January 1958 “Multiple-Unit-Rectifier Motive Power…”
NH MU telephone interference tests, has map of NH power system
AIEE Transactions November 1962 “Silicon Rectifier Cells…”
NH MU -GE silicon rectifier test, has photos and schematic.
Also mentions lack of wire over Cos Cob bridge, later a moveable wire here was pointless
as a phase break was needed anyway.
Pioneer III –Westinghouse silicon rectifier test, has photos and schematic
(in discussion section)
That ought to be enough heavy reading to put you asleep for a while LOL.
Bill
100 NH 4400-88, 4670-76, 5110-13/ PC 300-99 1954 Pullman “washboard” MU Westinghouse
4 WL653B Ignitron tubes (non RR, about 4”), 13ft cooling hose leads mentioned.
4 1451A motors (similar to NYCTA) transom mount 400hp 1560vac circuit
AC/DC service resistor control.
One MU converted to GE silicon rectifiers in 1961, 2 models of diode tried
10 NH 370-79 EP5/ PC/CR 4970-77 E40 1955 GE “jet”
12 8” GL6504 Ignitron tubes (designed for RR use)
6 752 motors (Alco-GE’s long running standard) 4000hp 2558vac circuit
AC/DC service transformer tapping control
12 VGN 130-41 EL-C/ N&W 230-41/ NH 300-10 EF4/ PC/CR 4600-10 E33 1956-57 GE “brick”
12 12” GL6878 Ignitron tubes (designed for RR use) larger size applied for freight duty
distilled water cooling, methanol anti freeze
6 752 motors 3300hp 2158vac circuit
AC only service transformer tapping control, half tap notching available
I collected this from AIEE Transactions. If you have access to a big city or university library here are the dates for looking up copies, just check their online catalogues:
AIEE Transactions July 1955 “Ignitron Multiple Unit Cars…”
NH MU’s, has photos, schematic
PRR 1914 and 1949 experimentals mentioned in discussion section
AIEE Transactions July 1955
Pg 169 consideration of rectifier effects in a loco
Pg 176 consideration of rectifier effects on 752 motors
-addition of traction return brushes to bypass axle journals and commutator flash rings
AIEE Transactions July 1955 “Rectifier Locomotives for the New York, New Haven…”
EP5 has photos, schematic and simple plan/elevation
AIEE Transactions May 1957 “The Electric System of the Rectifier-Type Locomotives…”
EL-C has photos, schematic and simple plan
AIEE Transactions September 1957 “Ignitron Tubes for Rectifier Locomotives”
EP5 EL-C E44 RR refinements, has photos, also cross section drawing of EL-C/E44 tube
AIEE Transactions January 1958 “Multiple-Unit-Rectifier Motive Power…”
NH MU telephone interference tests, has map of NH power system
AIEE Transactions November 1962 “Silicon Rectifier Cells…”
NH MU -GE silicon rectifier test, has photos and schematic.
Also mentions lack of wire over Cos Cob bridge, later a moveable wire here was pointless
as a phase break was needed anyway.
Pioneer III –Westinghouse silicon rectifier test, has photos and schematic
(in discussion section)
That ought to be enough heavy reading to put you asleep for a while LOL.
Bill
by Nasadowsk
Woah cool!
Hey - do you have any info on the washboard's control gear? I'm trying to see how close it is to the PIII cars, and I suspect it's VERY close - same tubes and simallar motors. The rectifier group on the PIII was an ISD04-A, BTW. My gut feeling is the PIII is just a Washboard with the DC features removed and a few minor changes.
I suspect the WL653 was derrived from welding use or such.
I wasn't aware the PR had a postwar experimental MU before the PIII, I was aware of the pre war ones.
GE went air cooled on the Silverliner II/II/Metroliner/Arrow II cars. I'm not sure but I think the Metros used the same tubes as the silverliners, I know they had 4 not 2 though - 2 in parallel each way in the 'A' winding.
Interesting to see how the tubes got bigger after the Jet - I wonder if misfire and arcback issues plagued the jets too? I know the E44 (and E33?) had a lot of misfire/arcback detection, and IIRC, smaller ignitrons tended to be more suspect.
AFAIK, only 1/2 the PIII fleet was converted to solid state, the other 1/2 was ignitron right to the end in the late 90's. I don't know if Septa still uses ignitrons in the SL II/III cars.
Hey - do you have any info on the washboard's control gear? I'm trying to see how close it is to the PIII cars, and I suspect it's VERY close - same tubes and simallar motors. The rectifier group on the PIII was an ISD04-A, BTW. My gut feeling is the PIII is just a Washboard with the DC features removed and a few minor changes.
I suspect the WL653 was derrived from welding use or such.
I wasn't aware the PR had a postwar experimental MU before the PIII, I was aware of the pre war ones.
GE went air cooled on the Silverliner II/II/Metroliner/Arrow II cars. I'm not sure but I think the Metros used the same tubes as the silverliners, I know they had 4 not 2 though - 2 in parallel each way in the 'A' winding.
Interesting to see how the tubes got bigger after the Jet - I wonder if misfire and arcback issues plagued the jets too? I know the E44 (and E33?) had a lot of misfire/arcback detection, and IIRC, smaller ignitrons tended to be more suspect.
AFAIK, only 1/2 the PIII fleet was converted to solid state, the other 1/2 was ignitron right to the end in the late 90's. I don't know if Septa still uses ignitrons in the SL II/III cars.
by Statkowski
One thing to remember about the EP-5s is that they were specifically designed for the New Haven's terrain and traffic. Operating between New York (either passenger depot) and New Haven, there were numerous curves and speed restrictions. The PRR was not hampered so.
And, in addition to the normal passenger service out of Grand Central or Penn Station, EP-5s were also used in freight service, i.e., trains HB-8 and BH-7, the Trailiners, between Harlem River and New Haven Union Station. The Trailiners had a 75-car limit.
And, in addition to the normal passenger service out of Grand Central or Penn Station, EP-5s were also used in freight service, i.e., trains HB-8 and BH-7, the Trailiners, between Harlem River and New Haven Union Station. The Trailiners had a 75-car limit.
Ex-NYNH&H SS Opr
by Bill West
This is the GE and PRR ignitron equipment that lead into NH’s experience:
1 GE box cab #18 and flat car #19 1912 experiment at the Schenectady works.
Appears to be blower at left, 2 transformers, more gear and then 2 single anode pumped type mercury arc tubes on the flat (X and X’).
“When the Steam Roads…” Middleton, 1st ed. Pg 399, 2nd ed. Pg397. Car not coupled.
1 PRR 4692 PB54? 1913-15 Westinghouse MU experiment,
Multi anode pumped type mercury arc, 2? LIRR 308 motors (225hp ea). resistor control.
Possible 1910 rectifier photo in 1929 brochure reprint in CERA’s “Westinghouse Electric Rwy Transp”.
Ran on NH Harlem River & New Canaan lines. Same time as Paoli electrification was being worked out. PRR did not have AC mu’s or wire yet so testing on NH lines and borrowing a MPB from LIRR makes sense (gets the necessary DC drive too). Or it could have been a first trial at converting steam PB’s to MPB’s. But I can’t find the car on any roster.
European activities of the late 30’s were reported in Railway Age.
1 PRR 4561 MPB54 1949-55+ Westinghouse MU experiment
4 WL653B Ignitron tubes (non RR, about 4”), 2 LIRR 559DR3 (230 hp ea) motors. resistor control
intended to use tapping control if design ever used for production
Continued 1947 lab tests. Philadelphia zone, regularly pulled a trailer. Baggage section initially used for instrumentation.
PRR only had 2 strings of DC MP54’s, once used NY Penn to Manhattan Transfer. Presumably to connect with New Jersey steam commuters running from Exchange place (A bit of a reversal of H&M/Manhattan transfer’s role for main line expresses) then transferred to LIRR. In 1949 the fleet was AC MU’s so a loan of a Long Island car looks more logical, it comes with all the needed parts in place, but I haven’t located the car number in either fleet.
We need to find a photo of this car because it is the electrical prototype of all our East Coast rectifier MUs.
4 PRR 4995-96 E3B (B-B-B) 1951, 4997-98 E2C (C-C) 1952 BLW Westinghouse prototypes
12 __ Ignitron tubes, modified (same look as WL653B but about 1.5x diameter & 2x height)
6 370DZ motors (a diesel model) rated 3000hp per unit, 4200hp operation mentioned
1664vac circuit, tapping control. Did use Ignitron voltage control (phase delay) to give half notches
Using Ignitrons was the idea of a Westinghouse engineer, raised after PRR had already contracted with them and GE for this P5 replacement demonstration project in 1949.
and following after the NH:
6 PRR 150-55/ PC/SEPTA 244-48 MP85 1958 Budd Pioneer III/Silverliner I prototypes MU Westinghouse
4 WL653B Ignitron tubes, 4 ____ motors 100hp ea.
1580vac circuit. resistor control. 2 cars converted to silicon rectifiers 1961
60 PRR/PC 4400-59 E44 1960-63 GE
12 12” GL6878 Ignitron tubes, 6 752E5 motors 4400hp. 2520vac circuit. transformer tapping control
Silicon rectifiers foreseen in the design, just not commercialized in time
4460(37th frame) & 4461-65 delivered with silicon rectifiers, 4438-59 converted later. classed E44a 5000hp
references:
AIEE Transactions vol 69 1950 “Rectifier Type Motive Power…”
1949 experimental, has schematic and tube cross section drawings
1914 experimental mentioned
AIEE Transactions 1951 “Selection of Equipment...”
GE did lab test on rectifiers with an NYCTA motor, decided cost and weight would be higher
AIEE Transactions January 1952 “A New Electric Locomotive…”
E2B (GE) has photos, schematic and simple plan/elevation
discussion touches on Westinghouse E3B, E2C
AIEE Transactions January 1952 “The Pennsylvania Railroad Ignitron…”
E3B, E2C has photos, schematic and simple plan/elevation
discussion touches on GE E2B
AIEE Transactions July 1954 “Rectifier Motive Power…”
E3B, E2C telephone interference tests
AIEE Transactions July 1954 “Some Application Phases of the Ignitron…”
E3B, E2C ratings and telephone interference tests
IEEE Transactions May 1963 “Application of Silicon Rectifiers on Electric Locomotives…”
E44a has photos, partial schematic and minor comparisons to E44
Westinghouse Engineer January 1950 speech on E3B, E2C, bio on Ignitron supporter
Westinghouse Engineer January 1951 news on E3B, E2C, turbine, Blue Goose turbine, S2 turbine
Westinghouse Engineer July 1952 brilliant cover art of glowing Ignitron in front of E3B/E2C, full story with schematic and sketch plan. One pair handled 162 coal loads Enola to Morrisville at 24mph on Smithville grade, B-B-B ride very good. Felt they had the machine, but we know PRR didn’t have the dollars. Story on tube technology progress.
Westinghouse Engineer January 1953 news on E3B, E2C, 1949 MPB54, washboard order, Blue Goose photo, Jawn Henry turbine
Westinghouse Engineer January 1954 news photo of washboard tube cabinet
Westinghouse Engineer January 1955 news photos of washboard, Jawn Henry and, lab research on germanium and silicon replacements for Ignitrons.
GE Review is a very good source but I only recently have had access and so haven’t skimmed all of it yet.
An addition to my previous post; the EP5 paper explained that it was the transfer of the CUT electrics to Grand Central that caused NYC to upgrade the Park Ave trestle. That lead directly to the EP-5’s C-C design. If CUT hadn’t gone diesel we would of had Ignitron EP-4’s.
There is a lot of detail of the sort you are seeking Phillip, more than I can put here short of grand theft copyright. So maybe we should talk about the library angle if you think that’s worth while.
AIEE Transactions changed to IEEE in 1963 and industry/railroad applications moved off into sub publications. I’ve found very little and so have no details on the following fleets that trace their history back through the washboards. Some day we should fill this out and get it correct:
38...PRR 201-219 251-269............................1963.......Budd......Silverliner II Westinghouse Ignitron
17...RDG 9001-17..........................................1963.......Budd......Silverliner II Westinghouse Ignitron
20...PRR 220-239..........................................1967......St Louis Silverliner III GE.................... Ignitron
35...PC 100-134............................................1968-69 St Louis Arrow I..........Westinghouse SCR
90...PC 800-889............................................1968-72 Budd..... Metroliner......West/GE.........SCR
130 PC 270-303, 304-399 pairs....................1973-74 GE.........Silverliner IV..........................Ignitron
14...RDG 9018-9031......................................1973-74 GE.........Silverliner IV..........................Ignitron
104 PC 8400-8451 pairs, 8500-8551 pairs....1973......GE.........Cosmopolitan M2..................Ignitron
40...PC 8600-8619 pairs, 8650-8669 .pairs...1974......GE.........Cosmopolitan M2..................Ignitron
70...PC 534-603 pairs...................................1974-75 GE.........Arrow II.................................Ignitron
88...PC 101-188 pairs...................................1975-76 GE.........Silverliner IV..........................Ignitron
100 CR 8700-8749 pairs, 8800-8849 pairs...1976......GE.........Cosmopolitan M2..................Ignitron
230 CR 604-633, 634-799pr, 1500-1533pr...1977-78 GE.........Arrow III...............................SCR
For your specific points:
>do you have any info on the washboard's control gear?
I’m e-mailing a sketch, yes it looks the same as the PIII schematic I’ve seen in the Nov ’62 discussion. But keep in mind that some of the circuits would be the logical best choice to every experienced designer. The ’49 PRR car originated what is essentially the same circuit.
>I suspect the WL653 was derived from welding use or such.
I would use broader words, there was a variety of industrial uses for DC drives, shipyard use for shore power and chemical plant usage back then. Everybody who had an M-G set would see these as being a good deal.
>I wasn't aware the PR had a postwar experimental MU
This was a Westinghouse project with PRR’s co operation.
>Interesting to see how the tubes got bigger after the Jet
Based on HP and circuit voltage both NH and VGN locos had the same nominal current. But GE discussed a huge difference in the duration of passenger and freight accelerating currents. I picture pulling the throttle out on a dozen Pullmans and not being able to keep the ammeter at the red for 15 minutes before I would run out of safe railroad. With a 100 coal cars it could be there for 2 hours. For that matter, you can’t get maximum current into the motors at passenger speeds anyway. So maybe both are enough reason to change to sizing the tubes on a continuous basis for the Virginian rather than economically using the short time rating as on the NH. It raises an interesting point about reassigning locomotives without checking ratings and maybe changing gears. I know GN had trouble running E units on grades that dragged their passenger trains down to a 40mph medium freight speed.
>I wonder if misfire and arc back issues plagued the jets too?
Even the washboards had misfire lights, a 50c neon bulb across the tube would do it and would be a useful on/off/shorted indicator for troubleshooting. By itself I wouldn’t take it as more of a sign of weakness than the power light on your PC. Similarly, clearing arc backs is important but then so is clearing flashovers on traction motors. Again if it’s rare, I’m not sure it’s a sign of weakness. Westinghouse and GE talked up the reliability. Being a new idea the tubes would look better than maintaining “old fashioned” contactors and accelerating resistors, at least for a while. But after that we can get on to what became the reality. The July 1952 Westinghouse story mentions arc back as problem with the 1914 car but said the new locos and cars weren’t having trouble
Bill
1 GE box cab #18 and flat car #19 1912 experiment at the Schenectady works.
Appears to be blower at left, 2 transformers, more gear and then 2 single anode pumped type mercury arc tubes on the flat (X and X’).
“When the Steam Roads…” Middleton, 1st ed. Pg 399, 2nd ed. Pg397. Car not coupled.
1 PRR 4692 PB54? 1913-15 Westinghouse MU experiment,
Multi anode pumped type mercury arc, 2? LIRR 308 motors (225hp ea). resistor control.
Possible 1910 rectifier photo in 1929 brochure reprint in CERA’s “Westinghouse Electric Rwy Transp”.
Ran on NH Harlem River & New Canaan lines. Same time as Paoli electrification was being worked out. PRR did not have AC mu’s or wire yet so testing on NH lines and borrowing a MPB from LIRR makes sense (gets the necessary DC drive too). Or it could have been a first trial at converting steam PB’s to MPB’s. But I can’t find the car on any roster.
European activities of the late 30’s were reported in Railway Age.
1 PRR 4561 MPB54 1949-55+ Westinghouse MU experiment
4 WL653B Ignitron tubes (non RR, about 4”), 2 LIRR 559DR3 (230 hp ea) motors. resistor control
intended to use tapping control if design ever used for production
Continued 1947 lab tests. Philadelphia zone, regularly pulled a trailer. Baggage section initially used for instrumentation.
PRR only had 2 strings of DC MP54’s, once used NY Penn to Manhattan Transfer. Presumably to connect with New Jersey steam commuters running from Exchange place (A bit of a reversal of H&M/Manhattan transfer’s role for main line expresses) then transferred to LIRR. In 1949 the fleet was AC MU’s so a loan of a Long Island car looks more logical, it comes with all the needed parts in place, but I haven’t located the car number in either fleet.
We need to find a photo of this car because it is the electrical prototype of all our East Coast rectifier MUs.
4 PRR 4995-96 E3B (B-B-B) 1951, 4997-98 E2C (C-C) 1952 BLW Westinghouse prototypes
12 __ Ignitron tubes, modified (same look as WL653B but about 1.5x diameter & 2x height)
6 370DZ motors (a diesel model) rated 3000hp per unit, 4200hp operation mentioned
1664vac circuit, tapping control. Did use Ignitron voltage control (phase delay) to give half notches
Using Ignitrons was the idea of a Westinghouse engineer, raised after PRR had already contracted with them and GE for this P5 replacement demonstration project in 1949.
and following after the NH:
6 PRR 150-55/ PC/SEPTA 244-48 MP85 1958 Budd Pioneer III/Silverliner I prototypes MU Westinghouse
4 WL653B Ignitron tubes, 4 ____ motors 100hp ea.
1580vac circuit. resistor control. 2 cars converted to silicon rectifiers 1961
60 PRR/PC 4400-59 E44 1960-63 GE
12 12” GL6878 Ignitron tubes, 6 752E5 motors 4400hp. 2520vac circuit. transformer tapping control
Silicon rectifiers foreseen in the design, just not commercialized in time
4460(37th frame) & 4461-65 delivered with silicon rectifiers, 4438-59 converted later. classed E44a 5000hp
references:
AIEE Transactions vol 69 1950 “Rectifier Type Motive Power…”
1949 experimental, has schematic and tube cross section drawings
1914 experimental mentioned
AIEE Transactions 1951 “Selection of Equipment...”
GE did lab test on rectifiers with an NYCTA motor, decided cost and weight would be higher
AIEE Transactions January 1952 “A New Electric Locomotive…”
E2B (GE) has photos, schematic and simple plan/elevation
discussion touches on Westinghouse E3B, E2C
AIEE Transactions January 1952 “The Pennsylvania Railroad Ignitron…”
E3B, E2C has photos, schematic and simple plan/elevation
discussion touches on GE E2B
AIEE Transactions July 1954 “Rectifier Motive Power…”
E3B, E2C telephone interference tests
AIEE Transactions July 1954 “Some Application Phases of the Ignitron…”
E3B, E2C ratings and telephone interference tests
IEEE Transactions May 1963 “Application of Silicon Rectifiers on Electric Locomotives…”
E44a has photos, partial schematic and minor comparisons to E44
Westinghouse Engineer January 1950 speech on E3B, E2C, bio on Ignitron supporter
Westinghouse Engineer January 1951 news on E3B, E2C, turbine, Blue Goose turbine, S2 turbine
Westinghouse Engineer July 1952 brilliant cover art of glowing Ignitron in front of E3B/E2C, full story with schematic and sketch plan. One pair handled 162 coal loads Enola to Morrisville at 24mph on Smithville grade, B-B-B ride very good. Felt they had the machine, but we know PRR didn’t have the dollars. Story on tube technology progress.
Westinghouse Engineer January 1953 news on E3B, E2C, 1949 MPB54, washboard order, Blue Goose photo, Jawn Henry turbine
Westinghouse Engineer January 1954 news photo of washboard tube cabinet
Westinghouse Engineer January 1955 news photos of washboard, Jawn Henry and, lab research on germanium and silicon replacements for Ignitrons.
GE Review is a very good source but I only recently have had access and so haven’t skimmed all of it yet.
An addition to my previous post; the EP5 paper explained that it was the transfer of the CUT electrics to Grand Central that caused NYC to upgrade the Park Ave trestle. That lead directly to the EP-5’s C-C design. If CUT hadn’t gone diesel we would of had Ignitron EP-4’s.
There is a lot of detail of the sort you are seeking Phillip, more than I can put here short of grand theft copyright. So maybe we should talk about the library angle if you think that’s worth while.
AIEE Transactions changed to IEEE in 1963 and industry/railroad applications moved off into sub publications. I’ve found very little and so have no details on the following fleets that trace their history back through the washboards. Some day we should fill this out and get it correct:
38...PRR 201-219 251-269............................1963.......Budd......Silverliner II Westinghouse Ignitron
17...RDG 9001-17..........................................1963.......Budd......Silverliner II Westinghouse Ignitron
20...PRR 220-239..........................................1967......St Louis Silverliner III GE.................... Ignitron
35...PC 100-134............................................1968-69 St Louis Arrow I..........Westinghouse SCR
90...PC 800-889............................................1968-72 Budd..... Metroliner......West/GE.........SCR
130 PC 270-303, 304-399 pairs....................1973-74 GE.........Silverliner IV..........................Ignitron
14...RDG 9018-9031......................................1973-74 GE.........Silverliner IV..........................Ignitron
104 PC 8400-8451 pairs, 8500-8551 pairs....1973......GE.........Cosmopolitan M2..................Ignitron
40...PC 8600-8619 pairs, 8650-8669 .pairs...1974......GE.........Cosmopolitan M2..................Ignitron
70...PC 534-603 pairs...................................1974-75 GE.........Arrow II.................................Ignitron
88...PC 101-188 pairs...................................1975-76 GE.........Silverliner IV..........................Ignitron
100 CR 8700-8749 pairs, 8800-8849 pairs...1976......GE.........Cosmopolitan M2..................Ignitron
230 CR 604-633, 634-799pr, 1500-1533pr...1977-78 GE.........Arrow III...............................SCR
For your specific points:
>do you have any info on the washboard's control gear?
I’m e-mailing a sketch, yes it looks the same as the PIII schematic I’ve seen in the Nov ’62 discussion. But keep in mind that some of the circuits would be the logical best choice to every experienced designer. The ’49 PRR car originated what is essentially the same circuit.
>I suspect the WL653 was derived from welding use or such.
I would use broader words, there was a variety of industrial uses for DC drives, shipyard use for shore power and chemical plant usage back then. Everybody who had an M-G set would see these as being a good deal.
>I wasn't aware the PR had a postwar experimental MU
This was a Westinghouse project with PRR’s co operation.
>Interesting to see how the tubes got bigger after the Jet
Based on HP and circuit voltage both NH and VGN locos had the same nominal current. But GE discussed a huge difference in the duration of passenger and freight accelerating currents. I picture pulling the throttle out on a dozen Pullmans and not being able to keep the ammeter at the red for 15 minutes before I would run out of safe railroad. With a 100 coal cars it could be there for 2 hours. For that matter, you can’t get maximum current into the motors at passenger speeds anyway. So maybe both are enough reason to change to sizing the tubes on a continuous basis for the Virginian rather than economically using the short time rating as on the NH. It raises an interesting point about reassigning locomotives without checking ratings and maybe changing gears. I know GN had trouble running E units on grades that dragged their passenger trains down to a 40mph medium freight speed.
>I wonder if misfire and arc back issues plagued the jets too?
Even the washboards had misfire lights, a 50c neon bulb across the tube would do it and would be a useful on/off/shorted indicator for troubleshooting. By itself I wouldn’t take it as more of a sign of weakness than the power light on your PC. Similarly, clearing arc backs is important but then so is clearing flashovers on traction motors. Again if it’s rare, I’m not sure it’s a sign of weakness. Westinghouse and GE talked up the reliability. Being a new idea the tubes would look better than maintaining “old fashioned” contactors and accelerating resistors, at least for a while. But after that we can get on to what became the reality. The July 1952 Westinghouse story mentions arc back as problem with the 1914 car but said the new locos and cars weren’t having trouble
Bill
by Nasadowsk
<i>38...PRR 201-219 251-269............................1963.......Budd......Silverliner II Westinghouse Ignitron
17...RDG 9001-17..........................................1963.......Budd......Silverliner II Westinghouse Ignitron</i>
Ok, from what I've seen, the SL II cars were GE, ignitron, and origionated the PCI propulsion package. GE's proposal to NJT re: Arrow I says this, as do Budd's documents.
<i>20...PRR 220-239..........................................1967......St Louis Silverliner III GE.................... Ignitron</i>
Yes.
<i>35...PC 100-134............................................1968-69 St Louis Arrow I..........Westinghouse SCR</i>
As delivered
An EE at NJT told me that they were converted to ignitron at some point because the SCRs tended to get wiped out by motor flashovers...
<i>90...PC 800-889............................................1968-72 Budd..... Metroliner......West/GE.........SCR</i>
Actually, the GEs were ignitron - 4 tube, AFAIK the only 4 tube MUs GE made.
<i>130 PC 270-303, 304-399 pairs....................1973-74 GE.........Silverliner IV..........................Ignitron
14...RDG 9018-9031......................................1973-74 GE.........Silverliner IV..........................Ignitron</i>
I've heard conflicting reports on these.
<i>104 PC 8400-8451 pairs, 8500-8551 pairs....1973......GE.........Cosmopolitan M2..................Ignitron
40...PC 8600-8619 pairs, 8650-8669 .pairs...1974......GE.........Cosmopolitan M2..................Ignitron
70...PC 534-603 pairs...................................1974-75 GE.........Arrow II.................................Ignitron</i>
This all matches up to what I've heard.
<i>88...PC 101-188 pairs...................................1975-76 GE.........Silverliner IV..........................Ignitron</i>
Maybe. Again, I've heard both ways.
<i>100 CR 8700-8749 pairs, 8800-8849 pairs...1976......GE.........Cosmopolitan M2..................Ignitron
230 CR 604-633, 634-799pr, 1500-1533pr...1977-78 GE.........Arrow III...............................SCR</i>
Yep.
<i>6 PRR 150-55/ PC/SEPTA 244-48 MP85 1958 Budd Pioneer III/Silverliner I prototypes MU Westinghouse
4 WL653B Ignitron tubes, 4 ____ motors 100hp ea.
1580vac circuit. resistor control. 2 cars converted to silicon rectifiers 1961</i>
I have the motor number listed in the manual in my office, and I do have the E2C/E3B book at home. The circuit would be 600V on the PIII, though. From the schematic you sent me, it really looks a LOT like a washboard without the changeover switch. I'll try to remember to scan it in some day in the near future...
I suspect the WL653B had whatever charateristics that made it good for RR use, or Westinghouse just used it everywhere. I've never seen a data sheet on it though
I've heard the pre war pumped tube experimental MUs were really a pair - one as the MU and one as the pumped rectifier.
I know as a fact that when GE proposed a propulsion system for Arrow I, that they were offering dynamic as an option, plus 25kv (actually 23,500) 60hz capability, and 11kv 60hz with a derating. They stated the main transformer in use on the Silverliner IIs (they stated as 'the 1963 cars for phila subrban service) already was a dual winding type for 25kv...
GE's design is VERY different from Westinghouse's, in that it's a phase angle machine with 2 fixed voltage sillicon rectified supplies. No resistors AT ALL, unless you ordered dynamics. I think Westinghouse did this on the Metroliner. They *really* had trouble with those cars.
17...RDG 9001-17..........................................1963.......Budd......Silverliner II Westinghouse Ignitron</i>
Ok, from what I've seen, the SL II cars were GE, ignitron, and origionated the PCI propulsion package. GE's proposal to NJT re: Arrow I says this, as do Budd's documents.
<i>20...PRR 220-239..........................................1967......St Louis Silverliner III GE.................... Ignitron</i>
Yes.
<i>35...PC 100-134............................................1968-69 St Louis Arrow I..........Westinghouse SCR</i>
As delivered
An EE at NJT told me that they were converted to ignitron at some point because the SCRs tended to get wiped out by motor flashovers...<i>90...PC 800-889............................................1968-72 Budd..... Metroliner......West/GE.........SCR</i>
Actually, the GEs were ignitron - 4 tube, AFAIK the only 4 tube MUs GE made.
<i>130 PC 270-303, 304-399 pairs....................1973-74 GE.........Silverliner IV..........................Ignitron
14...RDG 9018-9031......................................1973-74 GE.........Silverliner IV..........................Ignitron</i>
I've heard conflicting reports on these.
<i>104 PC 8400-8451 pairs, 8500-8551 pairs....1973......GE.........Cosmopolitan M2..................Ignitron
40...PC 8600-8619 pairs, 8650-8669 .pairs...1974......GE.........Cosmopolitan M2..................Ignitron
70...PC 534-603 pairs...................................1974-75 GE.........Arrow II.................................Ignitron</i>
This all matches up to what I've heard.
<i>88...PC 101-188 pairs...................................1975-76 GE.........Silverliner IV..........................Ignitron</i>
Maybe. Again, I've heard both ways.
<i>100 CR 8700-8749 pairs, 8800-8849 pairs...1976......GE.........Cosmopolitan M2..................Ignitron
230 CR 604-633, 634-799pr, 1500-1533pr...1977-78 GE.........Arrow III...............................SCR</i>
Yep.
<i>6 PRR 150-55/ PC/SEPTA 244-48 MP85 1958 Budd Pioneer III/Silverliner I prototypes MU Westinghouse
4 WL653B Ignitron tubes, 4 ____ motors 100hp ea.
1580vac circuit. resistor control. 2 cars converted to silicon rectifiers 1961</i>
I have the motor number listed in the manual in my office, and I do have the E2C/E3B book at home. The circuit would be 600V on the PIII, though. From the schematic you sent me, it really looks a LOT like a washboard without the changeover switch. I'll try to remember to scan it in some day in the near future...
I suspect the WL653B had whatever charateristics that made it good for RR use, or Westinghouse just used it everywhere. I've never seen a data sheet on it though
I've heard the pre war pumped tube experimental MUs were really a pair - one as the MU and one as the pumped rectifier.
I know as a fact that when GE proposed a propulsion system for Arrow I, that they were offering dynamic as an option, plus 25kv (actually 23,500) 60hz capability, and 11kv 60hz with a derating. They stated the main transformer in use on the Silverliner IIs (they stated as 'the 1963 cars for phila subrban service) already was a dual winding type for 25kv...
GE's design is VERY different from Westinghouse's, in that it's a phase angle machine with 2 fixed voltage sillicon rectified supplies. No resistors AT ALL, unless you ordered dynamics. I think Westinghouse did this on the Metroliner. They *really* had trouble with those cars.
by johnpbarlow
And, in addition to the normal passenger service out of Grand Central or Penn Station, EP-5s were also used in freight service, i.e., trains HB-8 and BH-7, the Trailiners, between Harlem River and New Haven Union Station. The Trailiners had a 75-car limit.I think Penn Central used the jets in freight service in New Jersey, as well.