Itty bitty CP trains

CP are the short itty bitty train specialists. How they compete with CN in Canada is beyond me. When CN is running 12000 foot trains left and right and CP is still laying back with there 5-7000 foot trains.

CP does have a shorter route for intermodal from out west to Montreal but still ... they don't move as much traffic.

Anyone know what their secret is?

Easy, shippers love CN's 12,000 foot intermodal trains. They really like when they are shipping intermodal and the train takes forever to get from A to B because they switch every terminal in between. When two trains are replaced by one, service suffers.

CP might run short trains, but in the end, shippers love consistent service. Compare CP's container volume out of the Port of Montreal vs CN out of the Port of Halifax. For Atlantic coast containers, CP is killing CN.

A case in point. CN train 105 used to be a Montreal to Winnipeg container train that handled CN's wharf business out of Montreal. She ran to Toronto and into Brampton Intermodal Terminal (BIT). There 105 set out Toronto containers and lifted a block for wetsern Canada. It would then leave BIT and run to northern Ontario and off to Winnipeg. Now, 105 is a Toronto to Winnipeg train. They've made 271, an Oshawa to Chicago autorack train a Montreal to Chicago train. Leave Montreal with the former 105's intermodal traffic, pick up 271's train in Oshawa, setout 105's traffic at MacMillian Yard, continue to Chicago. Train 105 picks up it's train and goes. All this to save the crew that took 271 on it's Toronto -Oshawa - Toronto trip. This will slow things down.

One of the reasons CN can run these monster trains, at least in eastern Canada, is that the CN mainline is mostly double tracked. This virtually eliminates any limits on where these trains can meet and pass each other. The CPR, on the other hand, has to contend with a mostly single track main with 6000'-8000' sidings spaced every 10-15 miles, or so. This restricts the length of trains that can meet along the line. North of Toronto (Vaughan) and west to Winnipeg, the CPR has been extending the length of many sidings to 10000'-12000' allowing much longer trains to operate on this route.

While CN may have longer (and more frequent) trains between Halifax and Chicago, last time I heard, CP was beating the pants off of CN in western Canada.

My "7,500 foot" answer echoes the posts above...

CPR's customers have told CP they expect:

1. Damage free shipments.
2. On time delivery.

"Damage free" is acheived by reducing the number of times each car is switched enroute and a LARGE emphasis on controlling (reducing/eliminating) in-train forces by CP's Locomotive Engineers. A train is "designed" to go from A to Z with very limited re-blocking/yarding. This reduces the chance of a "hard" coupling. CP's yards can barely handle 7,500 foot trains, and mostly by "doubling over". Their yards are simply "small" because CP doesn't "like" yards; they build trains once and let 'em fly.

"On time" also reflects CP's business model. This doesn't mean that train #292 will ALWAYS depart Alyth daily at 19:00, but 292 will ALWAYS make it's trip from A to Z in 56 hours 40 minutes.

CP has always made their money by hauling the most lucrative shipments they could handle, which rank:

1. Heavy bulk commodities in unit trains (grain, coal, potash, molten sulphur, etc).
2. Manifest "mixed" freight.
3. Intermodal, which is dead last.

In order to make any money on intermodal, you've got to move ALOT of it. And moving alot of it would entail longer trains, a la CN...

CN has the best low-grade route across Canada, whereas CP twists and turns and climbs and drops all the way across the continent. In addition, CP's main lines are single track with sidings. CP's infrastructure simply doesn't allow for 12,000 foot trains, as correctly pointed out their "standard" siding is 8,000 feet. However, based on CP's business model, ANY unit/manifest train can meet it's counterpart using an 8,000 foot siding. To invest money in adding 4-5 thousand feet to each siding to handle two or four 12,000 intermodal trains isn't worth the expense. Trying to force a couple of 12,000 intermodal trains down the current main line infrastructure wouldn't work. It would limit all siding meets to 2 trains instead of a 3 train meet, holding back another train, and so on, creating a "damage path" of delays to the "money makers" to handle 1 low-income 12,000 foot intermodal. CP simply isn't interested in that traffic.

CPR's CEO, Fred Green, has made it PRIORITY #1 to make CP a "fluid" railroad, reflecting what their customers want and pay for. CP has focused their investment dollars in locomotives and track structure, ensuring the trains move on time. Delays and congestion have rapidly been eliminated over the last 6 months, and actually reduced the number of employees needed to move the trains, resulting in layoffs of newer employees. CP's main lines are "over capacity" based on mathematical formulas for what each line "should" effectively handle in a 24 hour period. So, CP "should" be able to handle 16 trains/per day without delay/congestion on the "Alpha" Subdivision, 31 trains/per day on the "Bravo" Subdivision, etc. "Alpha" is currently running 19 and "Bravo" is running 38; and that's without any delays...so, Mr. Green's plan/business model is working. CP isn't going to throw in a 10,900 foot IM dog and mess it up...

CN has killed the container traffic from Halifax by combining trains into monsters that spend too much time working enroute and they fall behing schedule... alot. Over the long run, consistent service wins out. Case and point, lately train 148 (Chicago - Halifax) and 149 (Halifax - Chicago) have had about 50 platforms on them. There used to be two or three trains where there is now one. 146/147 used to run as CHI-MTL/MTL-CHI trains handling a block of JB Hunt and Schnider traffic to Auburn, ME via the St. Lawrence and Atlantic RR. This traffic was lost (I believe) due to the combining of these trains. There used to be a pair of CHI-TOR/TOR-CHI trains that also became part of 148/149. Three trains into one, handling 1/3 or less of the traffic.

BTW, CN's route between Toronto and Winnipeg via northern Ontario have precious few sidings over 6400-6500 feet. Brechin East on the Bala Sub was lengthened to around 13,000 feet a few years ago... but it is an exception rather than the norm. And, FWIW, CN runs monsters on that line. The longest I've seen was 9500 feet (overheard crew on the scanner). You can bet they've run 12000 feet up there, too. They may be good on the bottom line, but they cause alot of issues like where two over siding trains can meet.

The one example of this I've seen is at Washago, ON., where I whitnessed two over siding trains meet. Washago is where the Newmarket Sub and the Bala Sub meet... the bala is the mainline to western Canada and the Newmarket is the line to North Bay. Anyways, the northbound train pulled up the Newmarket while the southbound held the main outside of town. NB clears and SB is on it's way. NB backs off the Newmarket and onto the Bala. NB gets going again. SB was stabbed for approx 45 minutes, NB approx 1-1/2 hr. Do this a few times and things move at a snails pace.

ooooo I see. CN has ripped out shorter sidings and extended many out here in western Canada. There are many 9-12000 foot trains that roam here everyday.

CN does still have a lot of traffic. What does everyone think of the upcoming strike that all the CN conductors in Canada will probably be going on this Friday.

I think the reason CP is running shorter trains is that they are sticking to their new operating philosophy. That being trains run on a schedule and they run wether or not they are "full". I have seen some large CP trains on the Belleville Sub, and some short one's (like 10 intermodal platforms). To CP, consistency is the key... which is also what most shippers are concerned with. Tortise and the Hare.