Is there still a Fireman up front ?

Gilbert B Norman wrote:

czhoghead wrote:There is no pay differential, Engineer and Second Engineer positions pay the same.
The logic of closing the so-called "mini" crew bases escapes me; they were created, in theory, to streamline and economize the operation. OMA - CHI will require nine spots, the same number needed for single Engineer LNK - OTM and OTM - CHI operation. In fact, due to manpower shortages, the service has been covered with eight men as LNK is often (as it is currently) down to just three.
Likewise, SLC - GJT requires the same number of men as SLC - HER and HER - GJT did and, in fact, created Held Away pay in GJT that did not previously exist; apparently that decision was at least partially based on the inability of the SLC Road Foreman to effectively manage the GJT men "from a distance".

It appears Mr. SLCHub that I did misquote you. My comments were drawn from those made by a colleague of yours and cited above.

I have edited the faulty posting to reflect such; possibly you will choose to withdraw yours or at least the quote.

However, I stand on my premise that in "one a day' territory, in either class of service, economies were realized by "rum 'em as long and as far as you can". However, with the existing Engine Crew Consist agreement on Amtrak requiring two engineers to be assigned to scheduled runs greater than six hours, that premise is mitigated.

Again my apology, but if you are of thought that Engine Crew districts should be as long as possible, assignment of two Engineers notwithstanding, I hope you will choose to share your thoughts..

Before coming over to the RR, I was in the airline industry for 16 years. In those 16 years, I was employed by 5 airlines, 3 of which are no longer in existence. What many long time RR's fail to understand (in my own opinion) is that the management style and the economics of business is changing. Labor is not longer being viewed as an asset, but a liability. The days of claiming 24 hours in an 8 hour period are long gone as the business models cannot sustain it, nor tolerate it. Amtrak is always on the chopping block.

What guys need to realize is that upper Mgt. will always be paid more. They are paid upon decisions made by the board of the company. While our pay and benefits have not been raised to a level where they were 20 years ago, we still have a job and benefits. If the company decides to shorten the runs to a one-man operation, then so be it. I don't like it, but the economic benefits outweigh any negative thoughts on that. As I am the second man on the board from the bottom, I'd probably get cut off in SLC. So be it. I have nationwide seniority (except for the Corridor) and would have to chase my seniority elsewhere. But I would still have a job (maybe, LOL).

jp1822 wrote:It seems that Amtrak's labor agreements in some areas are antiquated and need to be updated. If it is one standard for the corridor trains and one standard for the long distance trains this may prove advantageous. If they do get updated, it may be beneficial for all - including perhaps the addition of trains.

Labor agreements get updated by negotiation, something Amtrak has not done in good faith, If Amtrak wants to change rules its gone cost them either in raises or in added benefits. Labor Agreements are a balancing act, if railroad wants certain amount of Dollars in improvements the Union gets same or equivalent amount in their Improvements.
Seven years of poor negotiating is not a good faith effort by Amtrak to improve things.

The premise, Mr. Norman, is indeed mitigated. Shorter districts under the current Agreement produce little, if any, overtime, less, if any, Held Away time, and vastly reduced van transportation costs (assuming roughly on-time operation) account the nearly complete lack of HOS violations. If, as I cited earlier, the same number of men are required to protect the service, that, it seems to me, is the approach the Company would wish to take.

Having said that, and in response to Mr. Benton, I am of two minds personally on the issue. The "built-in" overtime and Held time on the DEN - GJT and DEN - LNK jobs, for example, provide additonal income, obviously, over the 40- or 48-hour straight-time jobs shorter districts generally provide. Right now, I guess I prefer the additional pay; a year and a half from now when the house is paid off and the daughter's out of graduate school, I think I'll tend to favor the less-time-on-the-road, more-nights-in-my-own-bed scenario and may choose to exercise my national seniority accordingly.

Additionally, and importantly, is the "human factor", for lack of a better term, of two men in the cab. Yes, an extra set of eyes is of great benefit and can expedite the service (in the case of copying Mandatory Directives); on the other hand, many Engineers will tell you that working alone diminishes the potential for distraction, heightens one's sense of concentration and focus and prefer the notion that it's "all on you" up there. In that regard, it would be interesting to know if the Company and/or the BLET has studied the incidence of rules violations in one- versus two-man operation.

CZHog, yes the company and BLET have in fact studied the rules violations of two men in the cab versus one. There findinds...... one man in the cab equalled fewer rules violations. Just as you stated being alne provides a hightened sense of awarness. Quite personally I would rather be put on the ground for 30 days because I alone messed up and not my fireman/engineer or student.

Initially I was hired to work SLC. We had one job at the time that ran hog only and that was to Helper. Personally I loved this job working 3 hours as opposed to 11hrs to Winnemucca. If you got to helper anywhere close to on time you had about 10 to 12 hours down before going back on duty.

I for one am in favbor of a one man show. Not only does it allow me to be more focused on the job at hand but, it also allows me to do anything I want in that engine. If i want to smoke for example I dont have to worry about someone telling me they dont like it. If I am having a bad day I dont have to try and be nice to the other person. Also, when running alone, and I found this when I first marked up being a rookie Hoghead, it gave me the ability to learn some things on my own with out some old head telling me about how I screwed that up, could have done it better, or should have done something other than what I did do. It does make things more of a pain when copying mandatory directives, but, honesty how often do you really get them?

I only have one regular directive I have to copy and that is on my return run. I have to stopr to copy a track permit to run against the current through Sparks. This really makes no difference since I would have to stop and get flagged past the absolute entering into my limits anyhow. Plus it provides for a bathroom break if you need one.

I wont argue the long distance two man jobs pay a ton of money. They do!!! But, if I had to choose between my 48 hours straight time job which I sleep in a bed AT NIGHT. Then return in the morning and get off by 1050am, work only 2 hours 45 mins and am away from home for only 18 to 24 hours. BING IT ON BABY!!!

I know my little 3 hour tour of duty makes me feel a lot more rested than the SLC guys look when they relieve me or I relieve them. I would much rather make a little bit less money to have a better quality of life off the property than to slave for the carrier working 10 and 12 hour days, claiming I worked 11hrs 59 mins and turning back on 8 hours rest.

JUST MY OPINION!

MODERATOR'S NOTE:

Thread moved from the Amtrak forum to General Discussion: Railroad Operations and Facilities.

Thanks,