Hunter Harrison at CSX affect NS in New York State?

I don't see any of this effecting NS's operations much in NYS. They have shown time and time again they set their own timeline for investment and traffic growth, which seems to be slow and steady. There is nothing they can do overnight to steal traffic from the Water Level route or B&A.

As for CSX: The B&A isn't going anywhere and Selkirk will not be reduced. Both see too much traffic. As for the rest of the non-critical ex NYC arteries in NYS, that's anyone's guess. The only thing that EHH's work has done is benefit the shareholders and the few customers that the rest of the cuts provide service for.

It's actually being promoted as air, railroad and water. I think it's one of those things that evolves over time and gradually gets bigger, more business. Another important part of Buffalo to remember is that was one of the items on the proposed CPR / NS attempted merger, CPR was going to divert traffic around Chicago via Buffalo to ease congestion. That could also develop without a merger happening

One very big plus for EHH, he has a railroad background and so many management folks today do not have a railroad or operating background. I think this could end up being a big plus. I sure hope so.
Noel Weaver

RMB357 wrote:It's actually being promoted as air, railroad and water. I think it's one of those things that evolves over time and gradually gets bigger, more business. Another important part of Buffalo to remember is that was one of the items on the proposed CPR / NS attempted merger, CPR was going to divert traffic around Chicago via Buffalo to ease congestion. That could also develop without a merger happening

If NS was really ever interested in using Buffalo as an interchange point, they could have done it any time in the past 18 years. That whole idea, which makes a lot of sense, was an EHH plan and didn't seem to be well received by NS.

I think the railroad's willingness will go a long way to whether Buffalo ever becomes an "inland port". They've talked about it for a decade now. The big ships should start hitting port around the same time the Portageville Bridge is completed. If it doesn't happen when those factors all come together, I think we can assume NS isn't interested.

JoeCollege wrote:Does NS really need the Tier? Is the NKP from Cleveland to Bflo worth the headaches at Draw?

Yes, they do need the Tier. NS is doing a decent amount of business with at least half a dozen shortlines, as well as Suzie Q. Love it or hate it, fracking has helped the RR business. NS is also doing $8+ million in revenue per year from the Ithaca Secondary, even with coal traffic in decline. The Tier is also the shortest route owned by NS between Buffalo and New England.

JoeCollege wrote:Now that the Horsey owns D&H couldn't they just run to Harrisburg, then up the D&H all the way to get to New England? I suppose they wouldn't have fixed the bridge at Letchworth if they didn't plan to use it, but I'd think they could make do with the old PRR and maybe the Buffalo line to get back there if needed.

Could NS bypass CP Draw with the Buffalo Line and the former D&H? Yes, but it would be a much longer route. Helpers would also be needed at Renovo. Some of the signals have been removed from the Buffalo Line, too. Wick Moorman moved traffic off the Buffalo line back in the mid '00s because it was superfluous.

NS is concerned about CP Draw. They have apparently discussed the matter with CSX, but there is no concrete plan... yet.

SecaucusJunction wrote:I think the railroad's willingness will go a long way to whether Buffalo ever becomes an "inland port". They've talked about it for a decade now. The big ships should start hitting port around the same time the Portageville Bridge is completed. If it doesn't happen when those factors all come together, I think we can assume NS isn't interested.

NS has zero direct access to the Buffalo waterfront. The term "inland port" is not about ships or boats at all. Rather, it's about moving containers from the East Coast inland and unloading them at a dedicated facility.

Matt I think the trains could skip the buffalo line and just take the mainline through Pittsburgh, then go up the Sunbury line. But it would be nice to have reliable scheduling on the southern tier connections.

Some "light" reading on short hauls, one lane being Port Newark to Buffalo, for all of my good friends aboard this topic:

https://www.fra.dot.gov/Elib/Document/1649" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It, though rather dated, is well worth the read. I doubt EHH is reading, though. Too much effort, too little short term return for investors. Easier to rip out track, reduce capacity, and tell train crews (and frightened office workers forced to operate trains) to do dangerous things frm the safety of his office. I hope there is a special place waiting for him in a few years.

Matt Langworthy wrote:

JoeCollege wrote:Does NS really need the Tier? Is the NKP from Cleveland to Bflo worth the headaches at Draw?

Yes, they do need the Tier. NS is doing a decent amount of business with at least half a dozen shortlines, as well as Suzie Q. Love it or hate it, fracking has helped the RR business. NS is also doing $8+ million in revenue per year from the Ithaca Secondary, even with coal traffic in decline. The Tier is also the shortest route owned by NS between Buffalo and New England.

JoeCollege wrote:Now that the Horsey owns D&H couldn't they just run to Harrisburg, then up the D&H all the way to get to New England? I suppose they wouldn't have fixed the bridge at Letchworth if they didn't plan to use it, but I'd think they could make do with the old PRR and maybe the Buffalo line to get back there if needed.

Could NS bypass CP Draw with the Buffalo Line and the former D&H? Yes, but it would be a much longer route. Helpers would also be needed at Renovo. Some of the signals have been removed from the Buffalo Line, too. Wick Moorman moved traffic off the Buffalo line back in the mid '00s because it was superfluous.

NS is concerned about CP Draw. They have apparently discussed the matter with CSX, but there is no concrete plan... yet.

Thanks for the replies. I really just don't know much about operations and the logistics of who has track where, etc. so this is helpful.

RMB357 wrote:Andy, those are great suggestions to get an hour off the schedule and when it comes to intermodal every minute can count if you want good customer service.

I saw one report that indicated that EHH, on a business train when he was looking at BNSF, saw a "Z" train and said that would not happen on his railroad.

Running trains at three different speeds (Amtrak, intermodal, manifest) does not fit in his operating schema. For that matter, things like tying up the main at Utica for an hour to make a pick-up or drop might not fit that schema, either... He seems to like a smooth "conveyor belt" operation. Everybody runs at the same speed...

Remember, this is a guy who had a computer set up at his house, and on at least one occasion took over for the dispatcher.

Matt Langworthy wrote:

SecaucusJunction wrote:I think the railroad's willingness will go a long way to whether Buffalo ever becomes an "inland port". They've talked about it for a decade now. The big ships should start hitting port around the same time the Portageville Bridge is completed. If it doesn't happen when those factors all come together, I think we can assume NS isn't interested.

NS has zero direct access to the Buffalo waterfront. The term "inland port" is not about ships or boats at all. Rather, it's about moving containers from the East Coast inland and unloading them at a dedicated facility.

Yes that is exactly what I'm talking about via NJ and Portageville

Noel Weaver wrote:One very big plus for EHH, he has a railroad background and so many management folks today do not have a railroad or operating background. I think this could end up being a big plus. I sure hope so.
Noel Weaver

I would opine that in comparison, the guy who runs the guillotine has experience in surgery.

EHH has experience wringing every last dollar out of a railroad on the short term. Once he leaves, the railroads seem to go into recovery mode so as to repair the damage he's done.

It would be interesting to see how he'd make out sticking around a railroad for ten years, thus having to deal with the repercussions of his slice and dice approach.

But the issue of RR management folks not having RR experience is certainly real.

ccutler wrote:Matt I think the trains could skip the buffalo line and just take the mainline through Pittsburgh, then go up the Sunbury line. But it would be nice to have reliable scheduling on the southern tier connections.

It would still be a longer route than the Tier because trains would have to run further south (in a geographic sense) before heading north again.

I do agree the Tier is valuable when service is reliable.

It's all a moot point, because NS wouldn't be building a whole new bridge in Portageville if they planned on rerouting trains away from there. The big question is, what NS has planned for the route after the bridge is completed. Will it be status quo, or something more....

RMB357 wrote:Andy, those are great suggestions to get an hour off the schedule and when it comes to intermodal every minute can count if you want good customer service. Question, if the track was up to snuff the whole way and the signal system upgraded, could you guys get a 100 car intermodal train from Buffalo to Albany in ten hours or less with two SD70ACE or ESD units?

If the Tier was upgraded to 60, and the Freight Main to at least 50, along with fixing Binghamton's lack of signals, absolutely the journey could take less than 10 hours Buffalo to Mechanicville.

As for power, if you're trying to run a 100 car train you need at least 3 good units out of Binghamton.