How is the 1989-built Chinese USRA Mikado more efficient?

Re: new steam locomotives: The Chinese manufactured JS and QJ types ( 2-8-2 an 2-10-2s) until about 1989. The last new SYs I believe were built in 1999. There is a company and Switzerland that built some brand spanking new oil fired narrow gauge engines for use in tourist service a few years back. Also, the Mt. Washington Cog Ry. manufactured a locomotive ca. 1980 for use on their R.R..

Does anyone but me find it amusing that so far the M.W.C.Ry. has tried a diesel yet found in unsuccessful (it was built in the late 70s and I believe has since been scrapped) , so they continue to use what is in essence a 125 year old steam design to this day, and even went as far to make a new one back in 1980 ?

Regards,
Trevor H.

As a matter of interest, the NYS&W 142 is in the Philipsburg, New Jersey area and will be used on short ( ~8 mile roundtrip) excursions on the former Bel-Del south of P'Burg along the Delaware River weekends starting shortly.

>>>I don't know if 142 is stoker equipped, although the agent that handles the Chinese equipment offers a stoker; WMSR 734 has one, in fact. <<<

Hand fired, near as I can tell.

>>>I'm curious to see how the 142 does over at Black River's Bel-Del operation this summer.<<<

Did fine today. I rode the first trip. Large crowd, politicians, etc.

China came very late to the game of railroading and decided to play catch up the way it does it in most everything; industrial theft. The Baldwin Locomotive Works sold China three engines in 1948 and looked forward to a great trading future. But all the Chinese did was get them home, take them apart and reverse engineer them. Then they started making their own. I used to have a brochure on the two Mikados the JS and SY that are sold to the US market. According to the Chinese man I spoke with said they were up on roller bearings (You guys who have them could tell me more there) so I would say that they are of the "latest" steam engine design.
A fellow I know in Dawsonville, GA sells used medical equipment worldwide. He told me a MRI machine being sold to China was locked up at the dock. "I know what they are doing," he said. "they are trying to figure out how they can make one like it."
Jock Ellis

Somewhere I think I read that the Chinese used USRA plans from WWII for their locomotive construction.

I think there is some confusion here over the USRA. The USRA was created late in World War I, so late that none of it's designs were buillt and delivered until after the war was over. Those designs, however, were to influence locomotive design for many years.

As an example, I have often read that the WWII Army 0-6-0 (New Hope 9, MCC 4039) were USRA engines. They were not, having been built in the 1940s, but they did have a USRA influence. I can't put my hands on the drawings right now, but I did some research many years ago, and all of the major dimensions were the same. Perhaps the largest difference was that the Army engines were saturated, while the USRAs were superheated. Something less to maintain, which is also the reason for the simple (and easy to replace and maintain) freight car trucks under the tenders.

The SY Mikes are considerably smaller than the even the USRA light Mike. Per the handout from P'burg, the SY has 38,000 odd lbs. tractive effort. My 1925 Loco Cyc. (reprint) shows the USRA light Mike as having 54,600 lbs., while the USRA heavy produces 60,000 lbs.

I had posted earlier on this thread that the SY was a copy of a 1918 Alco, built for South Manchuria. I found the specs for the SY on the web, maybe a month ago, and converted all the metrics to English measurements. Going back to the 1925 Cyc, the SY looks as if it evolved from a group of locomotives built by Alco for the Tientsin-Pukow Railway (which may be in South Manchuria?). The drivers are the same diameter, but the SY has slightly larger diameter cylinders and a larger grate area. The SY has more TE, 38,000 odd vs. the T-Ps 35,300, but the larger cylinders would account for that. All evolutionary changes-

The T-P locomotive is on page 932, Figure 2282, if anyone is really that interested. The larger JS Mike appears to be similar in size to the Mexican Mike on the next page, although the Mexican drivers and cylinders are larger. The QJ 2-10-2 is similar to the USRA light 2-10-2 in size; the QJ has larger drivers, but the QJ cylinder dimensions are smaller.

Neat engine, yes, but USRA, no-

I agree with Otto make it look American.This may sound kinda crass but here goes.I wont ride Boone and Scenic Valley's line behind theirs.Ill take the diesel powered train.I think its great that they got a steam engine(albeit from China)but I cant agree with all the flags and chinese stuff all over it.Sorry have no use for promoting a dictatorship.Plenty of steam sitting about that could be restored here(I know not a lot but still)I read somewhere in the UK they made a steamer from scratch.Too cool is all I have to say.

Of course, since China uses so much coal, they're one of the worst polluters on the planet now....funny what 50 years does!

Not necessarily on point, but last June I took a tour with my family in China which included a week long cruise on a River Boat up the Yangteze from Wuhan through the new Three Gorges Dam up to Chunking. One evening, below the dam, I saw a Chinese Steam engine switch in a yard on the South Bank of the Yangteze. Not close enough for good pictures, but the unit had a leading truck, so there is a chance is was a Mike. Really cool to see this bit of 19th Century technology still at work in the 21st Century

An interesting article in Today's New York Times (free content) would suggest that the party will soon be over in China.

Also of interest, it would appear from the following 'brief passage' that the reporter is as ignorant of the definition of a "train', as distinct from "locomotive', as he is of where the New York Central assigned J-1 Hudson's for service:

• Inner Mongolia came by its steam locomotives rather late, buying them cheaply in the early 1990's when the rest of China was going diesel. The province is poor, but has plentiful coal. Trains like these were first built in China in 1956, based on a Soviet design, which itself was based on an American design for a train that used to run along the Hudson River in the 1930's.

Regarding the post from jockellis about the People's Republic of China practice of "reverse engineering", an inventor-entrepreneur friend of mine who had developed some industrial equipment not is a rail situation recently almost went bankrupt when he sold them one, and then found that PROC perfectly reproduced this equipment into full production and are now being sold as cheap imports, leaving him "holding the bag" for research, development, design, debugging, and overheads. I don't know how many in the USA have been burned by dealing with PROC business practices, but here in Australia this has been a common complaint by businessmen dealing with them.

As for the Chinese steam locomotive development, interesting insights by David Wardale who was a mechanical engineering consultant who actually worked with PROC developing steam locos there, in South Africa, and the USA (ACE3000 project of the 1980's) in his voluminous book "The Red Devil and other Tales of Steam" about his work. Since I've only started reading it (starting about South Africa's condenser locos), I haven't gotten to the Chinese part, but I'm sure that this book will give a lot of answers for those who have inquired in this thread. Unfortunately it sold out very quickly, but a mail order bookstore from the UK called "Camden Steam Services" (exact title?) may still have a copy or two left. I understand that David now is currently working on a new steam locomotive development called the "5AT" project (in the UK?). Don't have the details at hand but I'm sure you can find about it in Google. (Yes, surprise, steam yet even NOW, not just a decade ago!)

Sincerely,
Vytautas B. Radzivanas
Perth, Western Australia

http://www.a1steam.com/update.html

This is the link to the uk project. Its nearly complete!

As a crewmember on this locomotive, they are truly truly awesome. Phillipsburg, NJ Summer 2008!

Let's get back to the point. How far can this old design be modernized? I am sure that it still can't compare to the offerings of Lima or Alco from the late 30s-early 40s. I'm sure that with all allowances for intended service, UP 844, MILW 261, or a NKP Berkshire are much more efficient.

Otto Vondrak wrote:I really dislike the tenders that the Chinese built with the handrails and all... was hoping one of the railroad sheet metal shops around here would square it off and make it look more American...

-otto-

Well Otto, keep your eye on the Valley, as we intend to do just that! (More or less. )