Hoe do you fire up a steam loco?

Boys -

you can post what ever you like -
the one who said it all and said it best was José Feliciano with
Light my fire ...

Carter B:

I think there is not much remaining of the depot; they have even torn down the old station of Hamburg-Altona.
A steam loco in 'Bavarian green'? - Dunno ..
There is one Bavarian S3/6 but this Pacific is based in Bavaria (the class is from 1908 and was built in various modifications until 1930)
Normaly northern steam trips should have one or the other 01.10 Pacific. They have (deplorably) re-streamlined one of the reboilered DB 01.10s, this is 01 1102;
For museums, let me have a look into it and post something later, ok?
Anyone planing to come to Germany may ask me telling me where they want to go and I may see what you could see if it can be seen at that time - you see.
Let's see.
Juniatha


Add. July 30th / 31st:
Here are some addresses to sites and events:

http://www.dgeg.de - Deutsche Gesellschaft für Eisenbahngeschichte;
have a site with locos, cars and coaches displayed at Bochum-Dahlhausen among which 41 024 oilfired Mikado and 01 1056 coalfired three cylinder Pacific, div. Prussian locos in orig. livery; another site is at Neustadt a.d. Weinstraße; have events and make trips with steam and diesel (respective lovers / haters carefully check loco numbers not to show up at the other party' event);
for trips: click on 'Reisen und Tagesausflüge; on the opening board choose: Museum und Fahrzeuge Bochum-Dahlhausen / Neustadt a.d. Weinstraße - Studienreisen - Tagesausflüge - etc.
Oct.8th there is a trip by 52 7409, an unrebuilt (original type) 52 class Decapod, ex DR, equipped with DB headlights, black & red DB livery;

http://www.museumsbahn.de - Eisenbahnmuseum Darmstadt-Kranichstein
another site with locos and cars and coaches;
August 20th: trip by 23 042 (1950s standard type 2-6-2); black & red DB livery;
if you scroll down the site you will see a small picture of a DR Pacific oncoming and below that a line
Zum Eisenbahn-Planer
click on it will open a list of oncoming events - quite a list

http://www.drehscheibe-online.de/termine/index.php3 - list of events in Germany and some international by Drehscheibe Magazine (turntable)
on the opening page at "Bitte wählen Sie einen Monat aus:" choose the month you are interested in; this should open a list of events.
The next line "Falls auch Sie hier eine Veranstaltung bekanntgeben möchten, folgen Sie einfach diesem Link."
translates: If you want to advertise an event, just follow this link.
Next lines "Bitte senden Sie Änderungen oder Streichungen von Terminen an [email protected]. Ihre Termine können Sie selbst in den Kalender eintragen! Nutzen Sie diese Möglichkeit! Ihr eingetragener Termin wird zusätzlich an die Print-Redaktion der DREHSCHEIBE weitergeleitet!"
translates: Please send changes or cancellation of events to [email protected]. You can enrol your date of events into the calendar! Take advantage of this! Your enroled date of event will also be forwarded to the printing editorial staff of Drehscheibe.
So, if you like you may actually advertise some event in Colorado over here in 'Old Europe' (Rummy's expression) - and why not! (but no diesel events, that would be pointless since over here there are just a few individuals so oriented)

http://www.oegeg.at - oegeg, to be sure, Oesterreichische Gesellschaft für Eisenbahngeschichte
a powerful organisation in Austria that have built even a new roundhouse at Ampflwang / near Völklabruck. Until Nov. 5th they have a large exhibition of locos and cars and coaches there. They have quite an array of Austrian and German mainline steam locomotives among them 12.14 a 2-8-4 bought from Roumania, copy of the 1928 Austrian 214 class express 2-8-4, then: 01 533 heavy DR Reko type Pacific, 44 661 standard type heavy DR three cylinder Decapod, 42 2750 austerity Decapod (the heavier 'brother' type to the well known 52 class Decapod), engine rebought from Bulgaria, then: 52 8186 DR Reko type light Decapod; 50 3519 DR Reko type light Decapod, 86 501 DR standard type light 2-8-2 tank engine, 93 1326 (very) light Austrian 2-8-2 tank engine; 52 8186 is presently undergoing overhaul on this site.
Sept. 9th: visit by 41 018 oilfired DB Mikado coming from Augsburg (near Munich) for a tour;
to open the site click onto the ÖGEG emblem; in the opening page see title: information and click on > Jahresprogramm 2006 herunterladen this should get you a list of 2006 events.
When going to Austria be prepared to possibly having lots of 'Mehlspeisen' (cakes like for instance 'Marillenkuchen' = apricots cake) because they may become irresistible and good white and red wine to go with dinner. Generally speaking any humble simple roadside Gasthaus (Restaurant) can be trusted, there just is no bad food served in Austria. A specialty is 'Fridattensuppe' to go before the main course (boillon with stipes of pancake: light and refreshing); in hot weather avoid heavy lunches, rather go dining in the evening around 19 - 22 h.

Or: at Gooooooogle search just type in: Dampflok and a loco number, like 01 1066; please note blank space between the first two figures (class) and the following three or four figures (specific class and individual engine of this class, as in: 01 = heavy standard Pacific, 01 10 = three cylinder type thereof, 66 = engine within class 01.10) This will open a list of entries for this engine and related engines, clubs and sites having said engine or having been visited by that engine, or photos of that or such engines by individuals etc.; this may go far, depending on your will and patience to get lost in virtual steam land. It will eventually also lead you to a list of all engines preserved in Germany and from there to the sites where they are, have been or may go to in upcoming trips, etc.
So long for now folks, bye! Good luck in clickety-click click-along!

Juniatha

Friends,

I received a question via IM. I felt the answer would be better answered
in an open post for those interested in such things relateing back to the original topic.
I was asked how much coal do I burn in an 1 1/2 inch scale Atlantic?
If I'm running sort of hard, with a decent train behind me, and I run all day, which I useually do, the engine can burn upwards of sixty pounds of coal. That includes the initial fire up.

Take care,

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

That explanation only brings on additional questions.

Roughly how much coal will you burn with a light load compared to a heavy load ? What does your curve of load vs coal used look like ? And yes, we know that a heavy car will burn more gas per hour than the same car stripped. Also, we are assuming that the figure you gave was for Anthracite, what would it be for Bituminous ???

Hi Alan,

Thanks for the reply and the questions. Sorry for being sort of vague in my initial response.
First, running light, the engine uses almost no coal. The pressure will stay at 125psi easily. When working, however, and depending on grades more than load, coal needs to be added fairly often to maintain 125psi.
The old guys that taught me used to say, "Fire often, fire light". That seems to work most of the time. On occasion, I do get carried away, over fire, and really smoke things up.
The coal I'm useing is Virginia soft coal from western Virginia.

Thanks for asking,

Take care,

Bruce

An article in one of the smaller rail magazines had a story about a logging railroad that had some steam in 1960. Give or take a year or two. The magazine might have been TRAINS, but anywho; the material needed to start the fire was put in then some kerosene was added (it might have been diesel fuel). Then a match and poof, flames right out of the stack and a fire box of burning wood ready to heat up the water.

U-Haul,

Been there, done that. Even in smaller scales, thats a little scarey.
On occasion, I figured the fire was'nt right or I thought I had lost the initial fire, I've spritzed lighter fluid into the fire box through the open fire door. And BAWHOOSH, flames from the ash pan, flames out of the fire door. Not a fun thing to do.

Take care,

Bruce

ErieAtlantic / U-Haul

The question is too loosely asked - there are no exact parameters given, so no worthy answer is possible. Further, you are talking about a model - the thermodynamic qualities of which I do not know by the faintest guess, I don't even know if you are using superheated steam or - more likely - saturated.
Basically it should not be a problem to follow demands feeding the engine as larger grates have been handfired in the history of steam traction (*g*).
The advice to fire lightly and more often is correct. Principally you'll have to fire according to draughting. In a model, draughting should not be a problem, generally speaking, due to the small volume of steam exhaust column in absolute values, as compared to even a small real engine: the small quantities of gas and steam will mix quickly, there is no need for sophisticated draughting arrangements such as Kylchap or other multi-nozzle designs - but if you dare to design and built one the result may be drastic.
So you just need to keep the grate covered evenly and just as high as to maintain pressure and have a good draughting - i.e. a bright fire with but lightly grey or clear exhaust: clear with fire well burned through, lightly grey with coal added newly.
Side remark: if that does not maintain pressure you may have a lazy draughting and if that's so no amount of overfiring will compensate for it but you'll have to tune up exhaust nozzle to chimney or maybe even have to re-adjust construction of the two to each other and to the amount of steam exhausted which asks for delicate design to get good efficiency. Proper functioning of draughting is most vital for steaming; the complementing point to it is air conduct to grate which has to ensure evenly unrestricted access of air to all parts of the grate under all conditions! This said, your tubes ratio of free gas cross section to surface must be correct - usually in models it should be on the low side, i.e. providing but low resistance.
Don't add up too much coal too soon - this will choke the fire and hamper draughting i.e. reduce the amount of combustion air passed through grate. You'll have get a feeling for how much the engine wants to burn under which working condition and when you get that you'll be able to fire in advance of an upcoming demand such as an oncoming incline (hope you have no model-railroad type of ramps which would easily stall an Atlantic type engine).
I wonder a little about your question because usually a steam loco will tell you what she wants - maybe it's a problem of mutual communication...
Juniatha


Add. July 31st / Aug 1st:

ErieAtlantic

Thank you so much!
Design of the blast nozzle is delicate: it must have the proper diameter entering and leaving (the proper conical taper) and must be carefully adjusted to position, shape and diameters of the chimney so you have a properly spreading steam column and a well filled chimney, making a good tightening against 'false' air entry while giving a low wall resistance. Not to forget, the exhaust pipes have to join in a well streamlined way and have to lead to the blast nozzle by low resistence layout and gentle adjustment of cross sections. This was something that was often violated in real engines by sloppy carefree design or even more carefree patch-work repair.
It may be so that you have to retain a grey exhaust depending on the grade and characteristics of coal used of which I have no notice.
Actually I thought they used shallow firebox wide grate generally in US types of 2-8-0s and even 4-6-0 - in contrast to the 'narrow' type firebox with grate positioned between rear coupled wheels or even down between plate frames, such as in the Prussian P8 (DR class 38.10) passenger and mixed traffic TenWheeler. I agree that generally speaking the wide firebox type asks for a more shallow fire bed and the narrow type for a thicker one.
Engine types like the P8 demanded a comparatively thicker fire bed since they had a comparatively small grate but good draughting. The P8s were reliable and lively steaming if you knew their ways, otherwise you could as well run into trouble with overfiring which could produce clinkering and thus lack of combustion air. At the hands of an experienced crew a P8 of over 40 years of service could still rise to surprising performance when called to replace a failed 23 class or even a Pacific, although running at speed was hard due to stiff springing of last coupled axle just below the cab and low balancing factor of reciprocating masses. With the grate sitting so low and well sloping forward firing a fully extended P8 at speed was easy since the coal was virtually taken off the shovel and you didn't really have to throw coal way forward. But with the small grate you would have to keep up a fairly constant feed and even spreading, never allow a 'hole' or dull area to develop in an intense fire.
Side remark: this characteristic of the narrow type of firebox allowed for a 3.8 m grate length in the hand fired Chemin de Fer Paris-Orleans 4-8-0 rebuilts designed by A. Chapelon; these engines were capable of sustaining some 4200 ihp up long 1 in 100 ramps, topping them at better than 100 km/h (some 63 mph); only later 240.P series received stokers off workshop.
What made work less than enjoyable on the P8s was the lightly built, rattling and drafty short cab, fully open to the rear and always keping you well informed about weather conditions (still drivers kept their side window open, sticking their nose into the wind in that omnipresent poise of steam crews everywhere). The engines always retained their high pitched ear-tearing Prussian Railways type of whistle in contrast to the low sounding whistles of DR/DB standard engines.
Oh - and about your post of July 28th: that sounds like a new definition of the term 'external combustion process'.
Juniatha


In November 1969 three years before ending service as the last of Prussian P8s on DR’s Halle division
38 2443 leaves Leipzig Bayerischer Bahnhof with train P2526 for Geithain, still going strong after some
50 years of service. For decades the P8 was the VW Beetle among German steam locomotives.
Introduced during the vanishing years of the Belle Époque and with construction continuing well into
the Golden Twenties, P8 engines were running at the time of the Titanic disaster, they were steaming
through WWI, kept traffic going during the 1930s depression, got involved in WWII, kept on running to
see the introduction of DB’s 103 class electrics on 200 km/h TEE trains, and some were still running on
Eastern European railways when the TGV and ICE trains were being introduced to service.
Today’s, restored P8s yet go on running as the giant Airbus A380 is being tested for certifications and
we are struggling with Windows XP.
First introduced in 1906, this year marks the P8’s Centennial Celebration as an engine class ...
Photo by Wolfgang Müller (from: '100 years P8')

Hi Photogenic,

Thanks for the response, the interest, and the very knowledgeable answers. Your right, in most small scale locomotives that I am familiar with we run saturated steam. A few guys that I know do use super heaters.
As far as the grates in my engine go, they are 12" long by 8" wide, but
a bit high. So the fire needs to be thin on the grates. In small scale, the tenwheelers, moguls, and consolidations (4-6-0, 2-6-0, and 2-8-0) have rather narrow, deep, long fire boxes, so their fire bed is thicker top to bottom.
Sorry to disagree with you on this point. Nozzels are critical in coal fired 1 1/2 inch scale locomotives. The propane and oil fired engines are not quite as picky. They need to be wide open so as not to suck the fire right off of the burner. Now this figure may sound a little off the wall, but the nozzel in my Atlantic is 9/32 ID. And it has worked since 1997. Almost ten years of hard, dependable running at many different tracks all up and down the east coast of the USA.
The coal that I and a few of my friends use is a little strange. If there is no smoke from the stack, a little too light on the fireing, pressure will start to fall. Seems with this coal, a little smoke all the time is what is needed.
As I've stated, I do over do it every once in a while.
You are so right about the differences between full size and scale. Surpriseing enough though, there are more things that are similar than different.BTW, I've been in the live steam hobby for over thirty five years now. Thankfully, many years ago, I met older men that taught me so much stuff than I cannot elaborate here. And now, I am showing younger guys the little tricks that I was taught. I have had the privilege of teaching about five or six young guys how to run a steamer on my Atlantic. Two of these young men, now have their own locomotives. One is a 2 1/2 inch scale Colorado and Southern 2-6-0 narrow gauge engine and the other young man just took possesion of his engine this past week end. A 1 1/2 inch scale "Sotty" mogul, 2-6-0. Both engines are coal burners.

Thanks to everyone for your interest,

Take care,

Bruce (ErieAtlantic7597)

Hi Bruce, Hi Photogenic,

Interesting discussion so far. So let's press on.

Seems to me that if you have nozzles, you could also have automatic stoking, an IronMan stoker. It could be electrically powered or air pressure powered. I'll bet that live steamers of some size, such as the Challenger or even the Big Boy have such appurtenences. I will also guess that they have steam generators to provide electricity for the engine's lights and its stoker. I will also imagine that there are live steamers that not only have headlights, but ditch lights and strobe lights. They must be something to see at night.

Is the 2-1/2 inch scale 2-6-0 a 12" gauge locomotive, from Decatur, by chance? I helped them fire it up for their first time on the rails at the Wabash Frisco, and Pacific.

Hi Pennsy

Stoker firing on a model - gee - and not to forget: power reverser, too, please! But if it can be done it sure is a feature! You might remote control the engine in the end ...

Hi insanerocketkid

Well, I have to say by now I would also be curious to get to know more about that Atlantic Type - is it a 'long' one or a 'short' one (that's my private expression for engine with drive to first / to second coupling axle since wheel base tended to be longer in the first case). What type was it modelled after? Bruce lift the curtain, please!
Juniatha

Gentlmen,
Thanks so much for all the interest and interesting comments. I'll try to answer our questions as best that I can.

Alan, in all the years that I've been in live steam, I've never seen a stoker on a small scale engine. But, of course, there could be, somewhere. One of the largest hand fired, coal burning engines that I was close to was a really nice, heavily built Frisco mountain 4-8-2.
BTW, I have a steam turbine generator on my Atlantic. But its only good for the lights. Very little load capabilities.

Rocketkid, the C&S mogul that I referred to is owned by a young friend of mine from Leesburg, Fl. Its a 2 1/2 inch scale engine. It runs on 71/2"
gauge track. There is a nice photo of it in railfan.net, young guys and live steam thread. But I do beilieve that another long time friend was involved in the fire up of the locomotive that you mentioned in Illinois.

Photogenic, believe this or not, I do know of a couple of engines with steam operated power reverse. As far as Atlantics go, most folks are familiar with the great E 6s of the Pennsylvania Railroad. Mine is a free lance model of an Erie commuter Atlantic. These were rather "short"
locomotives, front to back. However, the Milwaukee had late built Atlantics, classified as A class. They were long. Their main rods were connected to the FRONT driver crank pins as opposed to most other Atlantics which had their main rods connected to the rear driver crank pin.
Also, thanks for the interest in seeing my engine. Photos can be found at the Buckingham Central Railroad site, www.buckinghamcentralrr.com ,
Mid South Live steamer site, Largo Central site, railfan.net site.
Thankyou one an all for the very animated conversation about the Atlantics and the fireing of same.

Take care,

Bruce

Juniatha - "in Europe railways were generally more cautious about lighting up from 'dead cold' - it was usually done over one shift, took about 8 - 10 h. This was to allow a more gentle and more even warming up of the boiler, reducing stress from unequal heat expansion"

In modern South Africa we also tend to allow a whole shift to light up our heritage steam locomotives. At our steam club, Friends of the Rail in Pretoria, it takes around 8 hours with our smaller locos (24 and 19D classes) and 10-12 hours for the larger 15F class. You can push them a bit faster when necessary, but our technical wizards discourage it.

The technique is probably much the same everywhere. An inspection of the loco, a thin layer of coal in the firebox, a small pile of wood with some oil and/or kerosene-soaked cotton waste on top of the coal, then gradually add more coal as the fire spreads. We don't use an artificial draft inducer of any sort. We let her come round naturally until we have around 50 psi, then crack open the blower a little. We normally throw the match in about 36 hours before a trip, letting the loco come up to working pressure overnight and then spending a day putting her on the inspection pit for routine servicing, and shunting the load ready for the journey. Once in steam and not needed for a few hours we just fill the boiler and bank the fire and she'll stand with minimum attention (but always with someone on duty on site to keep an eye).

Our firelighters pass a short in-house written exam (mainly on safety and a check list of things to be inspected before lighting up) and then gain practical experience alongside a qualified bloke before taking a practical exam, which is basically a light-up under supervision, and includes operation of the injectors. Our drivers, firemen and shedmen, who also take turns lighting up, are all trained and certified by the national railway company, Spoornet. We also use one or two retired professional drivers as firelighters from time to time (steam survived on the South African national railway system until the early 1990s, and much later in industrial settings, so there is still a pool of skilled retirees, and indeed steam is still in use on at least one major industrial site).

The slower you fire up a boiler, the better off the boiler will be, and the longer it will last. You start a coal burner with wood, until you get a good hot fire, and good bed of coals, and then you can start adding the coal to it. On the W, W, & F two foot gauge engines, it takes a maximum of 3 hours before we have operating steam, but that is saying that the coal is wet, and the firemen is taking his time, to make sure that the engine warms up gradually. Once the engine has been oiled, and what not, then the engineer warms the cylinders by moving the engine back and forth a little bit to make sure that every thing is in order, and then you are ready to go on down the line. Things are different every day and every trip.

Joe

Juniatha,
sorry, the Altona roundhouse if nearly completely destructed.

And I want to correct some details to your very well given description.
Today, we start the locomotives also a day before, so ensuring the 8 hours startup time from cold.
But the so called "Resting fire" isn't a heap of coal in the middle of the grate, because this would left the steel of the firebox on all sides to moving, and cooling air, inducing thermal stress. The Resting fire is set up a two heaps at the front end of the grate, below the brick arch and a second under the firedoor at the rear end of the grate.
You set up a ring of fire, all around the sidewalls of the firebox on the grate, the middle is left free. Now, if the fire had come down, u quickly wet the coal till it is completely soaked with water and start so dig it right into the firebox. No exhaustor is online, because you do not want to lit the coal to flames. You have to be quick and precise. Shovel by shovel you have to put on, right thrown to front of the grate, to pile up a heap of black coal, somewhat brown smokung like an charcoal pile.
That's something what requires a good experience in shovel technique.

Now you do the same in the rear end.... if you want to be well, simply add some coal also to the sides.... and now close the firedoor, close all dampers and even cover the chimney... so heat won't get out, and your fire will glow like in a charcoal pile inside the heap. It will slowly eat itself through the heap and keep the firebox warm and the engine under pressure.
Usually you do not have a pressure close to operating pressure of 232 psi, you let the pressure come down to 116 psi, just to ensure enough power for some light from the steam driven generator, water pump and air compressor.

Today, you start from a heap of wood and paper below the brick arch, which is raised to a full grate covering fire of wooden chops and pieces.
After having the pointer lift from the zero mark on the pressure gauge you switch from wood to coal, and carefully place shovel on shovel to the fire...

And now, carefully you can lift the pressure.. but don't rush her to operation pressure, give her time, don't overfeed her, because she will get grumpy and punish you with hard layers of clinker, which make a freely steaming ride nearly impossible.

So if you have her at 116 psi, and you go next day out first... well, don't push her. Let her stay and prepare in the evening for the resting fire.
In the morning, you will have a better startup, as allways having the rush for going out...