Catskill Mountain Branch (U&D) Question

I just read a great article on the U&DHS website called "WEST OUT OF KINGSTON" written by Richard J. Niebanck. While it was a great article from the human perspective it was a bit lacking in dry facts. The article was written about a experience from 1947, so passenger trains were obviously still running then. My problem is that the closest timetable I can find is from 1934. It lists train 509 from Kingston at Oneonta at 12:55 p.m. daily. It lists a southbound counterpart leaving Oneonta at 10:40 a.m.. Does anyone know if these times were still accurate in 1947? Does anyone have or know of a timetable from that year? What types of cars were used on the trains and what was the consist? Also, does anyone know the freight timetable for the line? Were freights dispatched through from Kingston to Oneonta that late in the game? When did through passenger service cease? I know that is a lot of questions but I am always grateful for replies. Thanks.

<< It lists train 509 from Kingston at Oneonta at 12:55 p.m. daily. It lists a southbound counterpart leaving Oneonta at 10:40 a.m.. Does anyone know if these times were still accurate in 1947?

>> The U&D (and the Catskill Mountain Branch) was an east-west railroad. In 1934, depending on whether it was summer or winter, 509 and 510 were the local passenger trains, and the milk train was 527 and 528. 527 left Kingston around 6:00 a.m. with empty milk cars and a coach, and it usually met 528, the eastward milk train, somewhere between South Gilboa and Bloomville.

When 509 and 510 (or 512) operated, usually for the summer season, they carried mail, express and passengers and operated on something like the schedule you show. 527 and 528 didn't carry passengers in the summer, so they did not appear in the public timetable. For some winter seasons, NYC scheduled 509 and 528, with both of them handling milk, mail, express and passengers on the same general schedule that 527 and 528 used in the summer. To reach Stamford in the winter from Weehawken, you had to catch a West Shore train aroung 2:00 a.m. That was it.

<< Does anyone have or know of a timetable from that year?

>> Yes.

<< What types of cars were used on the trains and what was the consist?

>> Milk cars (on 527/528 and on 509 when it carried milk cars), an RPO/mail storage combine, and a baggage/coach combine.

<< Also, does anyone know the freight timetable for the line?

>> Freight trains always ran extra. Sometimes they were a day job, but for about a year around 1958 they ran at night.

<< Were freights dispatched through from Kingston to Oneonta that late in the game?

>> Yes. Until the CMB was cut back to Bloomville in 1965, KO-1 ran Kingston-Oneonta on Monday - Wednesday - Friday, and returned to Kingston the following day. Most of the freight traffic came through Kingston, and the train was usually short by the time it reached Oneonta. Most of the NYC/D&H interchange at Oneonta was anthracite for local delivery, but I remember one movement of a transformer on a flat car for Arkville that was too high or heavy for Bridge C-9 just west of Kingston.

<< When did through passenger service cease?

>> March 31, 1954 was the last trip. By then the trains were numbered 527 and 528, but they didn't handle any milk after about 1950 or 1951. The trains made a round trip Kingston - Oneonta and return daily except Sunday. The usual consist was an 8100 (Alco RS-1), one RPO/mail storage combine, and a baggage/coach combine. The last trip had a much larger train with Engine 8328, an Alco RS-3.

<< I know that is a lot of questions but I am always grateful for replies. Thanks.

>> You got it.

For more about the Catskill Mountain Branch (CMB), I suggest you get
yourself a copy of the book "The Old Up and Down". This book is still in
print and I know Ron's books among others carries it, lots of pictures and
good information too.
Noel Weaver

"The Old Up and Down" is a great book regarding the Ulster & Delaware. Lots of photos, mostly black and white, with some color. Good information on the U&D days, the NYC and late PC days too.

http://www.esrm.com/esrm/giftshop/books_videos.htm

-otto-

Thanks for all of the prompt replies!

Chief Troll,
I guess I dropped the ball on that one, it makes sense that the U&D was a east-west dispatched line. Thanks for confirming the times on those passenger trains. How about these milk trains though? Was there a set time that 528 left Oneonta, and if so when? And what was the point of having an westbound milk train (527)? Did it give up its milk cars to 528 when they met? I thought that 80% of all milk produced in New York headed for The City and that in the era before grocery supermarkets almost all milk was locally produced for local consumption. Sorry if there is a really simple answer to these questions but all of this happened 25 years before I was born.

Noel, Otto,
Thanks for the tip about the book. Does it contain any public timetables or employee timetable or references of equipment used? I am really looking for all this information for some personal research.

Thank you for your replies.

Catskill Mountain Branch timetables are fairly easy to find. Wasn't this branch consdered to be part of the River Division?

The book, "The Old Up and Down" contains many photos of equipment, a roster of steam locomotives, and plenty of reference. If you are interested in modeling the U&D at any period of time, you need this book.

-otto-

Jason -

The U&D normally operated 27 and 28 as two-day turns from Kingston, leaving Kingston early and Oneonta mid-morning. A good example is on the U&DRR Historical Society web page, where they have posted a 1926 employees' timetable for the U&D. The NYC added 500 to the original U&D train numbers in 1932.

Train 27 (527) handled the empty milk cars, and 28 picked up the loads. East of their meeting point, 27 would set out the empty, and 28 would spot it when they picked up the loaded car. West of the meeting point, 28 picked up the loads, and 27 later spotted the empties. So, following the common usage, 527 wasn't really a milk train because it only handled empty cars and empty cans, but the U&D showed both of them in the timetable as "Milk."

And yes, Otto, the Catskill Mountain Branch was not only considered part of the River Division, after January 31, 1932 it was totally part of the River Division. But the NYC published a separate employees' timetable for the CMB until sometime during WW II. I have CMB ETT's from 1937, and a consolidated River Division ETT from 1948.

Many of the U&D train dispatchers were transferred to Weehawken to continue their careers. I have heard that, until 1954 when 527/528 made their last run, there was a separate CMB desk for a first trick dispatcher at Weehawken. Not a real busy job, by then.

Any one interested in the U&D, and who has Train Dispatcher 3, have a look on their free simulation page. I have posted a U&D simulation from the 1926 ETT. It'll keep you hoppin'.