Can it be done better?

I spent some time on Darien Connecticut recently. From my vantage point I could see both I-95 and the NEC tracks. As truck after truck went by I saw only passenger trains go by. I'm not at all against trucking or the trucking industry (I have a couple antique trucks) But on this congested stretch of road would the rails be a profitable and practical way to move freight between cities on this rail corridor . Say between Boston and New Jersey. Springfield MA. and New Haven. or are they too short of a run to be practical. Thanks.

I think the freights can as long as they move at night, when passenger rail traffic is at a minimum. I would love to see more freights on the rails than trucks on the road. The problem I see with moving freight trains on the New Haven line would the clearance issues with the wire. We can move regular freights, but you can forget COFC stack trains unless the freights move it with just one container rather than a double stack. Still, I wouldn't mind moving a few more freights.

MNRR_RTC wrote:The problem I see with moving freight trains on the New Haven line would the clearance issues with the wire.

And clearence issues with the platforms. That would seriously limit the usage of tracks as freights would be forced to run on only the inner tracks. All it would take is one plug door ajar or shifted load and you will have a mess.

Combine that with the fact there are tonnage limitations due to wear and tear on the NEC, serious hazards to a conductor who had to walk his or her train in the event of an emergency (Walking a freight in 125+mph territory is not fun, i have done it) and the likleyhood of issues that would delay most trains (Kickers, trainline issues, etc) that plauge many freights would make (and DO make) the NEC not a practical corridor for many freight moves.

A freight car has no problems with platforms as freight cars are actually 2 inches narrower than passenger cars.
Only freight that would be a problem would be dimmensional freight on flatcars or deepwell cars.
The problem with todays freight is actually height, there are not to many freight cars left that are 14 foot 9 inches max.

It has been 30 or more years since any amount of through freight has
moved over the former New Haven between New York and Boston.
Today with bigger cars and tight clearances it would be quite difficult to
operate even an overnight container train over this route. In addition to
the clearance problems, Metro-North's signal system would also make it
much more difficult to run a through train, the running time probably has
about doubled between New York and New Haven alone.
I wish I could say that a project of this nature would work and a few years
back it might have but today unfortunately, it is basically a no go.
Noel Weaver

When the New Haven was the New Haven, before Penn Central, what were the percentages of freight on the NY-New Haven-Hartford line vs the Maybrook-Hartford line? I do understand why the PC wanted to eliminate the Maybrook line as to not short haul itself, but in hindsight, the line from Easton, Pa to Maybrook-Hartford (L&HR-NH) could have/would have saved an awful lot of ton miles for Conrail on freight going into Southern New England, New York points east of the Hudson River and Long Island.

trainwayne1 wrote:When the New Haven was the New Haven, before Penn Central, what were the percentages of freight on the NY-New Haven-Hartford line vs the Maybrook-Hartford line? I do understand why the PC wanted to eliminate the Maybrook line as to not short haul itself, but in hindsight, the line from Easton, Pa to Maybrook-Hartford (L&HR-NH) could have/would have saved an awful lot of ton miles for Conrail on freight going into Southern New England, New York points east of the Hudson River and Long Island.

This has been covered previously but here we go again. On the Maybrook
Line in 1968 there were usually six round trips while on the New York Line
there were three regular round trips between Cedar Hill and Bay Ridge
and usually three round trips between New Haven or Cedar Hill and
Oak Point/Harlem River.
The Maybrook Line was in its last days when the fire occurred in May,
1974 and it is a given that even if the fire had never occurred, the line
today would not be in use.
The bulk of freight into New England was east-west and not north-south
so most if it used the former New York Central across New York State and
the B & A from Selkirk. This was Penn Central's preferred route, it made
the most sense and was the best for the railroad in every respect.
For north-south freight, Penn Central felt it was better and cheaper to run
the cars up and down the River Line and via Selkirk just use the B & A to
get to and from southern and central New England. If they had a solid
train, they could even use the by-pass and not go into the yard at Selkirk.
There is little or no freight left on the former New Haven Railroad
especially in the former industrial areas of Connecticut so there is no
through freight on the New York Line and no freight of any kind over much
of the Maybrook Line as well.
In the April, 1957 there were over 70 through freight trains listed on the
New Haven Railroad, today, December 20, 2007 NOT ONE remains, they
are all but a memory. Today, there are a lot fewer local freight trains
over this territory as well, again plant closings, industry move outs and
general decline have taken their toll.
Noel Weaver

I guess my thinking on routing is swayed by the east-west routes that are used by the majority of trucking companies. Trucks coming east from Chicago heading for Boston predominately use the route across Pennsylvania (I 80) to I 84 which passes through Maybrook and on through Hartford. The majority of the trucks using the "water level route" are the sets of 53' doubles which are only allowed on the toll roads. In the trucking business, with fuel at $3 plus a gallon, every penny counts, so using the shortest non-toll routes does make a big difference. Pre Penn Central, wasn't most of the PRR's New England bound freight routed across Pa. to connections that would pass through Maybrook, via Easton-Allentown or Wilkes Barre-Scranton through Mechanicsville gateways?

According to the videotape I have on the NEC, freight trains are common on the NEC at night. Due to the high speeds used during daylight hours, freights are not allowed. Switching maneuvers are cautiously dealt with in between high speed passenger consists. At night there are fewer passenger trains and freights are permitted to use the ROW.

It is a Pentrex videotape.

trainwayne1 wrote:I guess my thinking on routing is swayed by the east-west routes that are used by the majority of trucking companies. Trucks coming east from Chicago heading for Boston predominately use the route across Pennsylvania (I 80) to I 84 which passes through Maybrook and on through Hartford. The majority of the trucks using the "water level route" are the sets of 53' doubles which are only allowed on the toll roads. In the trucking business, with fuel at $3 plus a gallon, every penny counts, so using the shortest non-toll routes does make a big difference. Pre Penn Central, wasn't most of the PRR's New England bound freight routed across Pa. to connections that would pass through Maybrook, via Easton-Allentown or Wilkes Barre-Scranton through Mechanicsville gateways?

As I stated previously, in the Penn Central days most New England freight
from the WEST was route over the former New York Central main line to
the B & A at Selkirk. As for pre Penn Central, in the PRR days, most
freight from the PRR to the New Haven for New England went via
Greenville and was floated across to Bay Ridge for the New Haven from
there.
Noel Weaver

Market pressures are definitely moving things back in favor of rail freight, but it will be a long time, if ever, before short-distance moves come back to the rails, with a few possible exceptions like aggregates (gravel).

One thing that wasn't noted about that truck traffic is that it's often a mixed load of retail merchandise -- high in value, time-sensitive, and often assembled at a "distribution center" in one of the traditional "warehouse towns" such as Albany, Harrisburg or Richmond. The positive news is that more and more of the "wholesale" portion of that traffic, going into the "distribution center" is moving by rail, either as intermodal or carload traffic.

But you're not likely to see a trailer piggybacked to a ramp near your local Wal-Mart or Target.

Thank you to everyone for enlightening me on this subject. I'm glad more merchandise is moving by rail to these distribution centers. And then distributed by truck. Perhaps this is the most efficient way to do this in todays economy.

I returned to New England in 1999 and have often wondered how much of the high cost of living in New England can be tied to transportation. We have limited ports, only three interstate connections, and don’t use our limited rail connections to their capacity. 95 is painful at all hours, and has too many chokepoints. 84 is not particularly truck-friendly either. 90 is a long detour for goods coming from the south.

I’m a little surprised that the intermodal business isn’t bigger. If we could put more trailers into Worchester, or something at Pease, we could make life on the interstates in CT and MA more pleasant. I presume this has been investigated and has not proven advantageous.

trainwayne1 wrote:

Pre Penn Central, wasn't most of the PRR's New England bound freight routed across Pa. to connections that would pass through Maybrook, via Easton-Allentown or Wilkes Barre-Scranton through Mechanicsville gateways?

PRR had two "friendly" connections into New England: One was via New Haven and the carfloats between Greenville/Harsimus Cove and Bay Ridge. The other used D&H between Wilkes-Barre (listed as Buttonwood for west/southbound moves, and Hudson for north/eastbound) and Mechanicville Yard near Albany. B&A was a New York Central property and little-used as an interchange partner until the PennCentral merger.

From Mechanicville, D&H ran further north to a Canadian connection at Rouses Point, or handed the traffic over to B&M, which in turn exchanged much of it with Maine Central at Rigby Yard in Portland, Maine.

Maybrook could be used for a PRR connection, but the route was roundabout, using Lehigh and Hudson River to Belvidere, New Jersey, then PRR's Belvidere-Delaware line south along the Delaware to Trenton. PRR favored the options cited above.

With the creation of Penn Central, much of this traffic was now diverted via Albany; B&M set up a direct PC/Conrail connection at Rotterdam Jct, west of Schenectady. Traffic on the former PRR Wilkes-Barre Branch shrank from freights of over 100 cars down to around 50 in the sumer of 1968. The line itself was later sold to D&H upon the creation of Conrail in 1976, and a direct connection (with CSX and NS) via trackage rights effected at Potomac Yard in Alexandria, Va.

Still later, Canadian Pacific acquired D&H and set up a joint operation with Norfolk Southern to handle southbound traffic from New England and Canada, and about three years ago, still more traffic found its way onto the line when NS diverted its Buffalo-Harrisburg freights via Wilkes-Barre to avoid a stiff grade in Northwestern Pennsylvania. The Selkirk and Rotterdam connections continue to handle traffic from New England to the west.

2nd trick op wrote:trainwayne1 wrote:

Pre Penn Central, wasn't most of the PRR's New England bound freight routed across Pa. to connections that would pass through Maybrook, via Easton-Allentown or Wilkes Barre-Scranton through Mechanicsville gateways?

PRR had two "friendly" connections into New England: One was via New Haven and the carfloats between Greenville/Harsimus Cove and Bay Ridge. The other used D&H between Wilkes-Barre (listed as Buttonwood for west/southbound moves, and Hudson for north/eastbound) and Mechanicville Yard near Albany. B&A was a New York Central property and little-used as an interchange partner until the PennCentral merger.

The PRR and theNew York Central interchanged through the Williamsport
area and into Dewitt where cars for the B & A went east.


From Mechanicville, D&H ran further north to a Canadian connection at Rouses Point, or handed the traffic over to B&M, which in turn exchanged much of it with Maine Central at Rigby Yard in Portland, Maine.

Maybrook could be used for a PRR connection, but the route was roundabout, using Lehigh and Hudson River to Belvidere, New Jersey, then PRR's Belvidere-Delaware line south along the Delaware to Trenton. PRR favored the options cited above.

The main reason that the PRR did not favor this route was because they
had to share the move with the L & HR and they would short haul
themselves.

With the creation of Penn Central, much of this traffic was now diverted via Albany; B&M set up a direct PC/Conrail connection at Rotterdam Jct, west of Schenectady. Traffic on the former PRR Wilkes-Barre Branch shrank from freights of over 100 cars down to around 50 in the sumer of 1968. The line itself was later sold to D&H upon the creation of Conrail in 1976, and a direct connection (with CSX and NS) via trackage rights effected at Potomac Yard in Alexandria, Va.

Penn Central did not set up the interchange through Rotterdam Junction
with the Boston & Maine, that connection dates back much farther than
the Penn Central. The New York Central had through freights between
Dewitt and Mechanicville for years previous. This was one of the last
places at least in the east where the FA's were used for quite some time.

Still later, Canadian Pacific acquired D&H and set up a joint operation with Norfolk Southern to handle southbound traffic from New England and Canada, and about three years ago, still more traffic found its way onto the line when NS diverted its Buffalo-Harrisburg freights via Wilkes-Barre to avoid a stiff grade in Northwestern Pennsylvania. The Selkirk and Rotterdam connections continue to handle traffic from New England to the west.

Back in the Penn Central days, the line between Wilkes Barre and the
connection to the Harrisburg - Buffalo Line suffered a lot of damage in the
floods of 1972. It finally got repaired but the Penn Central wanted to
abandon this line. It went to the D & H as part of the Conrail set up in
1976.
Noel Weaver