Just a snippet from the NY Times...

[jsc]

People are moving further and further out, and there is nobody coming into our cities and older towns. This inefficient style of living is the reason why we have trouble with mass transit.

thank you. I think you have been somewhat more succinct in saying what I am trying to get across.

[jsc]

Look, if SEPTA can increase the number of passengers it serves, it can make its deficit go away.

As the old adage goes, "You cannot make money mass transporting people. No way, no how." The PRR stated this way way WAY back in 1955.

The only way the SEPTA will operate without a deficit is to have the municipalities it serves and the state (Commonwealth?) of PA pump more money into the system.

let me be more accurate; if they can increase their ridership, they can make the current budget shortfall go away. I am not suggesting in any way that SEPTA can go off and make money doing what it does, nor do I believe it should. But there are fixed costs in operating a bus, train or trolley or whatever...whether there be one paying passenger or one thousand. (okay, thats not quite true, but you know what I mean). If the vehicles are full, the subsidy per passenger drops. What I am suggesting is that SEPTA needs to attract discresionary riders, not rely on the people who have no other choice. If they could do this, then not only would the revenue collected from fares increase, but their political base would increase as well, giving the political types more of an incentive to keep funding the service.

Heres a thought- as surely as cutting service cuts the systems utility and therefore its ridership, the inverse is true. If more vehicles are operated more frequently, the utility of the system increases and ridership gains will follow (though not immediately and perhaps not linearly)

[Matthew Mitchell]

The conundrum for an organization (or a disorganization) like SEPTA is that while it can't exist without subsidies, simply throwing money at it won't solve its problems either

That implies abuses at the highest levels. To prove that, you have to compare current subsidy level to what has been achieved at other transit agencies for that amount of money; then you hold that management accountable.

Well, yeah. Other railroads achieve OTP of 93% to 98%. SEPTA is well below 90%.

[Matthew Mitchell]

But I think even more impressive is the deal SEPTA worked out with NS to begin operations of a Reading commuter line under the NS flag.

There is no deal yet to have NS operate Schuylkill Valley service on behalf of SEPTA, just an idea being discussed by Jim Gerlach's task force. NS has decidedly changed course on partnerships with government agencies, both for freight (e.g. I-81 corridor in Virginia) and passenger service. But there also needs to be a willingness for SEPTA to give up control of the project and for the necessary funds to be found (all signs point to something in the $700 million ballpark being feasible).

[Marte]

SubwaySurface.....I was trying to post this message as politely as possible, but if you read between the lines, it is suggesting that there might be corruption at the highest levels in Pennsylvania.

If foreign racetrack owners have deep pockets, and they are trying really hard to bring gambling into Pennsylvania, where they might make billions of dollars more, and the Governer & his crew may benefit from such legislation; then, funding might be intentionally withheld from institutions such as SEPTA, in hopes that the public will feel "the squeeze" of funds and agree that bringing gambling into Pennsylvania will cure some of our ills.

[walt]

We're having the same argument ( over permitting slot machines at our two thoroughbred racetracks and maybe other places) here in Maryland. The Governor wants them, and the General Assembly won't authorize them.-- I have heard that if the Pennsylvania proposals are passed there, it could convince our legeslature to relent and give the Governor what he wants.----- stay tuned!

[SubwaySurface]

I see nothing wrong or corrupt with Rendell's proposals. The state isn't doing very well, and the city is doing even worse. The funds that slots bring in would help a bit. If people want to gamble, let them gamble. As far as SEPTA getting squeezed in the process, I think that could be possible, however I don't think there is any evidence of that.

SubwaySurface.....I was trying to post this message as politely as possible, but if you read between the lines, it is suggesting that there might be corruption at the highest levels in Pennsylvania.

If foreign racetrack owners have deep pockets, and they are trying really hard to bring gambling into Pennsylvania, where they might make billions of dollars more, and the Governer & his crew may benefit from such legislation; then, funding might be intentionally withheld from institutions such as SEPTA, in hopes that the public will feel "the squeeze" of funds and agree that bringing gambling into Pennsylvania will cure some of our ills.

[walt]

I think that some of the oposition to gambling, both in Maryland and Pennsylvania that is not based on moral or religious beliefs, is based on the Atlantic City experience with casino gambling--- that it hasn't really helped Atlantic City with the exception of the area where the big casino-hotels are. Slots, if properly run by the state ala the state lotteries, CAN be beneficial.

[wanderer34]

I've read to your subject and it's interesting that Philadelphia had one of the most complex rail systems in this country, next to Chicago, NY, Boston, and LA, and now we can't even use our rail system to full use while all the cities that I mentioned above (even LA of all cities) have efficiently run rail systems. We're still in the stone ages when it comes to subway and rail transit. Chech out the link at www.phillyblog.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3918&start=60[/url]

[benrussellpa]

And Philadelphia and its suburbs has a low population density? All statistical and anecdotal evidence shows otherwise. SEPTA is underserving this dense population on the rail end of things.


Please, explain to me how SEPTA can possibly serve the sprawling type of development we have in the Philadelphia region? How will a train help folks get from their McMansions in Limerick to, say, the Great Valley Corporate Center. I'm not sure where you live, but if one analyzes the commutes many people take, they're going from one suburban location to another to get from home to work or vice versa. There is no way rail could serve this pattern effectively without construction of new lines and supplemental bus service.

What needs to be tackled is the rampant, out of control, unplanned development that is happening throughout Pennsylvania. Our land use laws do not give local municipalities ability to effective plan on a regional level and target growth to certain areas. If this was possible, we could do things like target commercial or residential growth around existing RR stations.[/list]

[JeffK]

What needs to be tackled is the rampant, out of control, unplanned development that is happening throughout Pennsylvania. Our land use laws do not give local municipalities ability to effective plan on a regional level and target growth to certain areas. If this was possible, we could do things like target commercial or residential growth around existing RR stations.[/list]

Amen! Pennsylvania seems unwilling to let go of the old frontier-settler mindset that there's always more land over the next hill. The courts have tended to side with developers against the needs and wishes of local residents, somehow deciding that the developers' rights to maximize their profits outweigh the need for a liveable environment.

The problem is compounded by the fact that Pennsylvania has the most fragmented civic planning of any state in the country. Planning is most often handled at the township or even sub-township level, with over 2500 separate jurisdictions making essentially uncoordinated decisions about roads, schools, businesses, and so on. It's incredibly difficult to get anyone in a position of power to cede any of their authority to another group or agency that could make the different districts work together. As the old saying goes, "My kingdom may be small, but I am its only king."

Chester County went through all sorts of contortions to set up even a relatively weak board that could try to get various townships to simply talk to each other before acting. And about 10 years ago I participated in a planning exercise in southern Montgomery County, only to find that people equated any kind of intergovernmental cooperation with Soviet-style central planning. One troglodyte (sorry, but it's a fact) ended up shaking his fist at me and shouting that I was Communist traitor for suggesting that my township form a joint planning authority with just one other neighboring government.

To make matters worse, state law limits the extent to which even these local bodies can control development through zoning. In theory at least, every planning district has to allow some fraction of its land to be used for any purpose, no matter how deleterious. A typical ploy is for a developer to propose something they want such as a McMansion tract or a big-box store complex. The residents go ballistic, the plan is turned down, and the developer counters with something on the order of a truck terminal or a waste-transfer station. The local planners can't issue a second turndown because the developer will sue for "irreparable harm" or some such mumbo-jumbo. They can even file a personal suit against any planner who opposes them! Then they say, "Let's negotiate. How about letting us build this nice shopping complex?" Everyone breathes a sigh of relief about how a nice GigundoMart is better than a trash station . . .


GGGGGAAAHHHHHH!!!

[Tommy Rails]

I agree that buses at night are more efficient than running the El, however I don't think that substituting trains with buses during the day is beneficial for anybody: they cause a lot of traffic congestion, pollute the environment and take relatively longer to get places than trains. I think that what Philadelphia and most of the U.S. needs are light rail systems (that have the possibility to pay for themselves) that could go into communities and connect suburban neighborhoods with their regional rail and subway stations.