NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

[Backshophoss]

Is the loco event recorder even checked/tested during the 92 day inspection? Seems strange that the MFR is having
trouble pulling the data last recorded in the memory,unless that event recorder is so "old" that it's outdated?

[BandA]

How are the brakes controlled from the control cab? Is it a fully mechanical linkage to the air pipes?

I'm shocked that they can't use some of the undamaged platforms at least. Cordon off the bad area, the station building, put up plastic dividers & sample the air for asbestos. Plank across the platforms for a temporary walkway. Construction sites often have scaffolding & heavy planking over walkways to protect pedestrians.

Really bad that the black box in the engine wasn't working.

[Silverliner II]

Sort of on that subject, in operating from a control car, I was taught to keep the train notched while making a brakepipe reduction to keep the slack in on the train... Meanwhile in freight service the independent brake has a much greater retarding force than that of a railcar, so when making a trainline reduction, you generally bail off the independents. Yeah, passenger equipment runs at 110 psi vs 90 psi on freight, but do commuter car brakes have a more similar retarding force to that of the locomotive? And this blended braking stuff... does it automatically bail off the independents? Can you even control an independent from a control car, i think not? Some commuter engineer please explain this to a lowly freight service guy.

I know that there is no independent brake on the NJ Transit cab cars (none on MARC, SEPTA, Metro-North, or MBTA cabs either). A brake application with the automatic will control the locomotive brakes on the rear as well. However, newer cab cars at some commuter agencies, and the new brake equipment on some Amtrak ex-Metroliner cab cars do have an independent brake. I've never seen those used in action, so I won't guess if they work the same way.
With blended braking, it does not bail off the independent, nor does the engineer bail off the independent or that has the effect of nullifying the dynamic braking that is automatically initiated with blended braking.

With NJT, it gets a bit more complicated because except for their MU's, they use direct-release braking, same as freight, and they have a few different features on their automatic brake valves that are not on the straight 26/30 air or computer control brake setup.

That's about all I know, just from talking with some fellow passenger service engineers (I run freight, but I have had a few opportunities running passenger equipment).

[MCL1981]

People that ride these trains daily subconsciously know what it should feel like compared to what they're seeing and hearing. A train coming into a platform and not slowing down would be extremely obvious to me and about 500 other people every day. So I believe the passengers that say they didn't slow down. They may or may not have been exceeding the speed limit, which is a totally different issue than simply not slowing down leading up to the stop when you normally do.

[steemtrayn]

Cameras all over the terminal, and I still haven't heard a word about video evidence.

[MCL1981]

The NTSB undoubtedly has all of it. Since it was in the station, there aren't private businesses and homes with cameras that could/would end up on YouTube and sold to the news media. It's all state owned video, turned over directly to the investigators. You won't hear about it until the investigators says something about it. I suspect the video is very telling. But they want some context to go with it from the event recorder.

[trainbrain]

They appear to have added two additional trains to the Port Jervis Line weekend schedule to operate the modified schedule on weekdays. Train 90 leaves Port Jervis at 5:33am, makes all stops to Suffern, then stops at Route 17, Ridgewood, Glen Rock, Radburn and ends at Secaucus. Train 92 does the same thing, but does it an hour later. Also, train 1752 is normally a deadhead to Waldwick and revenue to Hoboken, but it now runs as a revenue train from Suffern making all stops except Route 17, which train 90 makes right after it passes through.

In the westbound direction, they added train 95 which leaves SEC at 5:03 and stops at Radburn, Glen Rock, Ridgewood, Route 17, Suffern, then all stops to Port Jervis. Train 97 makes the same stops, but leaves SEC at 7:08. No additional local trains appear to have been added.

Since so many fewer trains are running, have they made the consists any longer or run multilevels in place of single levels? I believe the multilevel sets on weekends are normally on 1705-1706-1863-1862-1723-1724-1731-1732 and 1707-1708-1717-1718-1725-1726-1883-1882 (I make no guarantee these rotations are 100% accurate, it's just the trips that I have recently seen multilevels on). The second one doesn't line up with the morning rush and the first one doesn't line up with the evening rush. Maybe they changed the rotations to run them during rush hours, I don't know.

[8th Notch]

Sort of on that subject, in operating from a control car, I was taught to keep the train notched while making a brakepipe reduction to keep the slack in on the train... Meanwhile in freight service the independent brake has a much greater retarding force than that of a railcar, so when making a trainline reduction, you generally bail off the independents. Yeah, passenger equipment runs at 110 psi vs 90 psi on freight, but do commuter car brakes have a more similar retarding force to that of the locomotive? And this blended braking stuff... does it automatically bail off the independents? Can you even control an independent from a control car, i think not? Some commuter engineer please explain this to a lowly freight service guy.

I know that there is no independent brake on the NJ Transit cab cars (none on MARC, SEPTA, Metro-North, or MBTA cabs either).

The new MBTA cab cars do have an independent brake although it's referred to as a holding brake which applies the brakes on the lead truck of the cab car, when I ran them I use to use it quite frequently.

[8th Notch]

How are the brakes controlled from the control cab? Is it a fully mechanical linkage to the air pipes?

I'm shocked that they can't use some of the undamaged platforms at least. Cordon off the bad area, the station building, put up plastic dividers & sample the air for asbestos. Plank across the platforms for a temporary walkway. Construction sites often have scaffolding & heavy planking over walkways to protect pedestrians.

Really bad that the black box in the engine wasn't working.

I believe the NJT Comet V's have the Fast brake system or some other type of computer controlled braking (CCB) which is a fly by wire system that sends messages to a microprocessor when the brake handles are moved, so no the engineer does not directly control the brakes mechanically as he would if it was the old fashion traditional brake stands.

[Silverliner II]

The new MBTA cab cars do have an independent brake although it's referred to as a holding brake which applies the brakes on the lead truck of the cab car, when I ran them I use to use it quite frequently.

Thank you. I had been wondering about that on newer cab cars where I'd seen the handle, but I didn't want to guess on if it just was for the lead truck of the cab car or actually held the locomotive (though without the appropriate air lines through the entire train, I should have known).

[MCL1981]

Somewhat related curiosity. How does the electronic braking work in conjunction with the train line air? The handle does still seem to be reducing brake pipe pressure since I hear the air as the engineer does his thing. But I understand it's electronically sensing the brake handle and electronically applying the brakes evenly along all the cars.

[BuddR32]

LI's C3 cab cars do not have independent brakes. The DE/DM engines had the bail-off removed when rather new.
Both engines and CC use the CCB type system with the handles electrically controlling a BPCU, EMERGENCY is the only direct air position at the controllers.

(just as a comparison)

[MCL1981]

LI's C3 cab cars do not have independent brakes. The DE/DM engines had the bail-off removed when rather new.
Both engines and CC use the CCB type system with the handles electrically controlling a BPCU, EMERGENCY is the only direct air position at the controllers.

(just as a comparison)

So for normal service braking, there is no brake pipe reduction. It is all electronic with electric over air controls on each car? The brake pipe becomes just for emergency redundancy and refilling the tanks?

[8th Notch]

Somewhat related curiosity. How does the electronic braking work in conjunction with the train line air? The handle does still seem to be reducing brake pipe pressure since I hear the air as the engineer does his thing. But I understand it's electronically sensing the brake handle and electronically applying the brakes evenly along all the cars.

Realistically engineers control the equalizing reservoir when they make reductions with the automatic brake valve not the actual brake pipe directly (you reduce EQ reservoir pressure first, then brake pipe follows.) The older brake stands you hear the air actually exhausting to atmosphere vs the newer computer controlled stands you are just hearing a speaker play a simulated sound. This is only half of the equation when it comes to air brakes, the control valves on the coaches which are mechanical and electrical in the case of NJT which uses EP brakes are what make the brakes actually apply or release.

[BandA]

I believe the NJT Comet V's have the Fast brake system or some other type of computer controlled braking (CCB) which is a fly by wire system that sends messages to a microprocessor when the brake handles are moved, so no the engineer does not directly control the brakes mechanically as he would if it was the old fashion traditional brake stands.

So if the electronics malfunction say 45 seconds from normal platforming the engineer would have no way to stop the train and would spend the last few seconds pulling the brake (handle?) back and forth. I'm speculating because I don't have enough information - sensor(s) malfunction putting the microcontroller in an invalid state where it "freezes" and won't adjust the brakes and continues to tell the engine that the MU cable is connected so the engine doesn't brake.

As for the amnesia of the impact, I can believe it as I have experienced this at least twice; 1) I was skating (badly) when suddenly I was on the ground with a broken tooth. Felt no impact and don't remember (I assume) crossing my skates and tripping. 2) I was walking on level ground when suddenly I was on the ground with searing pain in my ankle. I had torn a small ligament.

Do the cab cars have air bags to protect the engineer in a collision?