Hopefully Path runs full weekend/off peak service if this happens. From the Main/Bergen line, it would just be a matter of transferring at Hoboken rather than SEC to get to the city.
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Maybe Christie should feel guilty for scrapping the ARC tunnels. Now the economy of NY/NJ is in jeopardy because new tunnels may not be built before repair work starts.
Jersey_Mike wrote:Would it be possible to "flood" or just constantly spray and pump fresh water in the tunnels to try to wash the salt out?One of the recommendations in the report is to pressure wash affected areas of the concrete. The other recommendations include replacing the entire concrete bench, replacing all the track and ballast with fixed rail, and replacing all electrical equipment. Reconnecting the track alone at the end of each shutdown would greatly increase the cost and duration.
Also how come nobody ever proposes a long running series of weekend (or long weekend) shutdowns and other measures to do the work with the tunnel in service?
ALP46A 4662 wrote:Maybe Christie should feel guilty for scrapping the ARC tunnels. Now the economy of NY/NJ is in jeopardy because new tunnels may not be built before repair work starts.Christie should feel guilty to some extent, but he did everyone a favor by axing that travesty of a project. The only thing that bugs me is the money disappeared that was allocated for the tunnels. It is too bad Amtrak couldn't just swoop in and grab the money for their own tunnel project.
You just shook the hand , that shook the hand, that shook the hand of John L. Sullivan!
Since the former ARC tunnel would not have connected to NYP, it would not have alleviated this issue by much. Christie did us an unintentional favor by canceling.
I doubt if there is much or any extra rush hour bus capacity in the Lincoln Tunnel or in the Port Authority Bus Terminal. The GWB terminal might be of some uses.
Likewise, even with a small increase in PATH capacity resulting from their new signal system, I don't see how they could handle the load. I'm hoping they can figure out how to do it on weekends, or can at least stall the Hudson tunnel phase of the project until some new infrastructure gets built.
I doubt if there is much or any extra rush hour bus capacity in the Lincoln Tunnel or in the Port Authority Bus Terminal. The GWB terminal might be of some uses.
Likewise, even with a small increase in PATH capacity resulting from their new signal system, I don't see how they could handle the load. I'm hoping they can figure out how to do it on weekends, or can at least stall the Hudson tunnel phase of the project until some new infrastructure gets built.
zerovanity59 wrote:You cant cut Midtown Direct service completely. That would bring the Morris and Essex line to its knees. there will be delays, likely like when a train becomes disabled in the other tube. Its going to suck, but im sure some top quality dispatching would minimize the carnage.Rockingham Racer wrote:Question: could/should Amtrak ever consider telling NJT that-- because of the tunnel restrictions--NJT service would not be allowed in the tunnels while the reduced capacity is in effect?I think with 6 trains an hour Amtrak would not quite use all of them. I think Amtrak averages about 4 trains an hour through the north river tunnels on weekdays.
I agree with pumpers: this is going to put some leverage on moving the Gateway tunnel project forward.
If NJT can get Amtrak to agree to not run any trains against peak for one or two hours a day each direction and if Sunnyside has the storage space, 24 trains an hour could still run. Right?
I think the first result of this would be an end to Midtown direct service. All trains into and out of the city would be multilevel and the maximum length. If the other half of waterfront is built, we may see NECL and many more NJCL trains in Hoboken. Would this make Hoboken over capacity? PATH service would be a nightmare.
Ok so by the time these tunnels would need to be shut, PATH will have its new signaling system operational, with more trains per hour, and longer train sets on at least one line. That plus directing more traffic to hoboken via SEC and taking midtown direct into hoboken, and you have part of a patch fix while one tunnel is out. You could also increase connections from broad street station in newark via bus and NLR, so people can use that to connect to PATH. Some trains could turn at newark broad, as well.
This will put one hell of a load on PATH, but that system can handle it, i think.
It would be a huge PITA, but not the end of the world. I think PVL customers may end up getting bused over to the hudson line to open up slots at hoboken.
Any of you have thoughts on temporary solutions?
This will put one hell of a load on PATH, but that system can handle it, i think.
It would be a huge PITA, but not the end of the world. I think PVL customers may end up getting bused over to the hudson line to open up slots at hoboken.
Any of you have thoughts on temporary solutions?
Next stop the square, journal square station next!
25Hz wrote:Ok so by the time these tunnels would need to be shut, PATH will have its new signaling system operational, with more trains per hour, and longer train sets on at least one line. That plus directing more traffic to hoboken via SEC and taking midtown direct into hoboken, and you have part of a patch fix while one tunnel is out. You could also increase connections from broad street station in newark via bus and NLR, so people can use that to connect to PATH. Some trains could turn at newark broad, as well.First of all, Amtrak has stated that they will not close the tunnels until new tunnels are opened. Second, there is one mode of cross Hudson transportation that is not currently at capacity, ferries. The ferry companies will make a killing and then go bankrupt when the tunnels reopen.
This will put one hell of a load on PATH, but that system can handle it, i think.
It would be a huge PITA, but not the end of the world. I think PVL customers may end up getting bused over to the hudson line to open up slots at hoboken.
Any of you have thoughts on temporary solutions?
Maybe NJ Transit should use the path tunnels as previously suggested. It'll be funny trying to watch an ALP and multilevels squeeze through WTC.
Is the number of NY passengers using Midtown Direct much larger than it was pre-Midtown Direct? Has Hoboken-NY capacity on the PATH and ferry increased over the past 20 years? Maybe it won't be so bad if passengers go via Hoboken again for awhile.
ACeInTheHole wrote:Where in the Morris and Essex line would the problems with all service to Hoboken be? M&E is 2 tracks most of the distance between Newark Broad Street and the Kearny connection, it is 3 tracks from the 1 track Waterfront connection to the interlocking with the main line. The only issue I see is at the terminus, the merge with the main line, the terminal, and yards, but those is not issues with M&E itself nor do those only concern the M&E. Keep in mind this would not happen overnight, so scheduling changes would be made, unlike in a redirect.zerovanity59 wrote: I think the first result of this would be an end to Midtown direct service. All trains into and out of the city would be multilevel and the maximum length. If the other half of waterfront is built, we may see NECL and many more NJCL trains in Hoboken. Would this make Hoboken over capacity? PATH service would be a nightmare.You cant cut Midtown Direct service completely. That would bring the Morris and Essex line to its knees. there will be delays, likely like when a train becomes disabled in the other tube. Its going to suck, but im sure some top quality dispatching would minimize the carnage.
zerovanity59 wrote:Hoboken has its own set of lines to deal with.. And do you know how close to capacity Hoboken is?ACeInTheHole wrote:Where in the Morris and Essex line would the problems with all service to Hoboken be? M&E is 2 tracks most of the distance between Newark Broad Street and the Kearny connection, it is 3 tracks from the 1 track Waterfront connection to the interlocking with the main line. The only issue I see is at the terminus, the merge with the main line, the terminal, and yards, but those is not issues with M&E itself nor do those only concern the M&E. Keep in mind this would not happen overnight, so scheduling changes would be made, unlike in a redirect.zerovanity59 wrote: I think the first result of this would be an end to Midtown direct service. All trains into and out of the city would be multilevel and the maximum length. If the other half of waterfront is built, we may see NECL and many more NJCL trains in Hoboken. Would this make Hoboken over capacity? PATH service would be a nightmare.You cant cut Midtown Direct service completely. That would bring the Morris and Essex line to its knees. there will be delays, likely like when a train becomes disabled in the other tube. Its going to suck, but im sure some top quality dispatching would minimize the carnage.
ACeInTheHole wrote:That was my point, Hoboken and not M&E would be the problem. What about the six new tracks that are planned to be built in the long slip. Could they be used for this purpose?zerovanity59 wrote:Hoboken has its own set of lines to deal with.. And do you know how close to capacity Hoboken is?ACeInTheHole wrote:Where in the Morris and Essex line would the problems with all service to Hoboken be? M&E is 2 tracks most of the distance between Newark Broad Street and the Kearny connection, it is 3 tracks from the 1 track Waterfront connection to the interlocking with the main line. The only issue I see is at the terminus, the merge with the main line, the terminal, and yards, but those is not issues with M&E itself nor do those only concern the M&E. Keep in mind this would not happen overnight, so scheduling changes would be made, unlike in a redirect.zerovanity59 wrote: I think the first result of this would be an end to Midtown direct service. All trains into and out of the city would be multilevel and the maximum length. If the other half of waterfront is built, we may see NECL and many more NJCL trains in Hoboken. Would this make Hoboken over capacity? PATH service would be a nightmare.You cant cut Midtown Direct service completely. That would bring the Morris and Essex line to its knees. there will be delays, likely like when a train becomes disabled in the other tube. Its going to suck, but im sure some top quality dispatching would minimize the carnage.
What is the current condition of Harrison Yard? IF still useable,the RVL and NJCL Bay Head trains should end at Newark,
lay up at Harrison yard,it's a cross platform change to PATH to 33rd st/WTC. Might be considered a return to the CNJ
era,but it did work in the past. If Harrison yard is not useable,is there room at Hoboken or MMC to layup RVL and
NJCL(Bay Head) trains,since PATH and the Ferries can get you to the city.
If the stories of brackish water in the cables in the East River Tunnels are true,it's a matter of time before
the cables,rebar,and concrete return to dirt in the North(Hudson)Tubes and forces Amtrak to close them.
lay up at Harrison yard,it's a cross platform change to PATH to 33rd st/WTC. Might be considered a return to the CNJ
era,but it did work in the past. If Harrison yard is not useable,is there room at Hoboken or MMC to layup RVL and
NJCL(Bay Head) trains,since PATH and the Ferries can get you to the city.
If the stories of brackish water in the cables in the East River Tunnels are true,it's a matter of time before
the cables,rebar,and concrete return to dirt in the North(Hudson)Tubes and forces Amtrak to close them.
The Land of Enchantment is not Flyover country!
25Hz wrote:Ok so by the time these tunnels would need to be shut, PATH will have its new signaling system operational, with more trains per hour, and longer train sets on at least one line. That plus directing more traffic to hoboken via SEC and taking midtown direct into hoboken, and you have part of a patch fix while one tunnel is out. You could also increase connections from broad street station in newark via bus and NLR, so people can use that to connect to PATH. Some trains could turn at newark broad, as well.
This will put one hell of a load on PATH, but that system can handle it, i think.
It would be a huge PITA, but not the end of the world. I think PVL customers may end up getting bused over to the hudson line to open up slots at hoboken.
Any of you have thoughts on temporary solutions?
Have you ever been in the rush hour PATH now, when there is a problem in the tunnels and part of the NYP traffic is redirected to Hoboken? It is real madness with long lines to even get on the trains. Besides Hoboken to 33rd st PATH just had a major service suspension stating that they also need major upgrades to their ancient electrical system in the tubes. I am afraid that pretty soon, the transportation system of this state will degenerate to third world conditions...