Hoosick Junction Signals

Guilford Rail System changed its name to Pan Am Railways in 2006. Discussion relating to the current operations of the Boston & Maine, the Maine Central, and the Springfield Terminal railroads (as well as the Delaware & Hudson while it was under Guilford control until 1988). Official site can be found here: PANAMRAILWAYS.COM.

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Engineer Spike
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Hoosick Junction Signals

Post by Engineer Spike » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:48 pm

I have heard that the signals have been out of service for several months around Hoosick Junction. This is a result of a derailment at the junction which destroyed the signal bungalow. Has there been any headway in restoring the signal system?

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Re: Hoosick Junction Signals

Post by newpylong » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:52 pm

Yes, it is now DCS per bulletin order from the Junction all the way to North Adams. For a time it was also yard limits around the junction on the main too, not sure if they at least ironed that out.

They were in a pissing match (what else is new) with the VRS to figure out who would pay to fix them. Then they decided they were just going to wait until they do that NYDOT funded work at the junction to expand the VRS interchange to cut in new signals.

So the short answer is no, no work has been done to restore them. Not really a big deal operationally with no double iron in there and no customers left, but damn that must be annoying if you've got two road jobs lined up in the same direction and having to hold one for 22 miles.

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Re: Hoosick Junction Signals

Post by Engineer Spike » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:44 pm

The first train can call clear of a location. This could be hard if they still play games with not having head end boxes on the engines. If that is so the correct axle count of a detector, or even someone actually seeing the marker could be used.

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Re: Hoosick Junction Signals

Post by newpylong » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:27 pm

They all have head end boxes now. Remember all (well most) of that garbage 4 axle power has been booted well East of PAS.

In my years working for GRS/PAR I can't ever remember getting an additional line 2 in DCS with a train ahead that had called clear. Too much work for the dispatchers who could barely manage a couple of trains in their District at once as it is. They rather hold one to wait for the other job to clear the next signal or enter Yard Limits wherever that may be. They might be doing it now out there, but I don't live there anymore to see/hear it.

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Re: Hoosick Junction Signals

Post by 690 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:25 am

Yeah, I’ve never heard of a train getting a Line 2 and a Line 3 (train ahead). I imagine it’s partly because once you start doing that it makes it a lot easier to overlap Form Ds by accident. It’s more cumbersome to make a train wait, but at the same time, you’re playing it a lot safer.

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Re: Hoosick Junction Signals

Post by CRail » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:56 pm

You can overlap Ds in one direction, but not in both directions. I've always figured Line 3s come from when trains used to run in multiple sections, though I've seen it used when a track car is sent out behind a train or something.
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Re: Hoosick Junction Signals

Post by newpylong » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:41 am

No you cannot.

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Re: Hoosick Junction Signals

Post by CRail » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:12 am

See NORAC rule #400(A).

Yes, you can.
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Re: Hoosick Junction Signals

Post by newpylong » Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:56 am

I confirmed this with both CSXT and Keolis dispatchers as I haven't been NORAC qualified in over 10 years. No dispatching computer will allow any overlapping Form D regardless of same or opposing direction. The exception (manual override) is a Line 3 which is ONLY used for track cars following trains or to allow a train to follow another train in an Emergency.

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Re: Hoosick Junction Signals

Post by CRail » Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:00 pm

Okay, so the software may not allow it, and perhaps there are special instructions that prohibit it, but you can do it according to the rulebook.
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Re: Hoosick Junction Signals

Post by PT1101 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:01 pm

While we're veering further away from the title of this thread, I'm curious as to what language in NORAC Rule 400 (A) leads you to conclude that by rule, it is permitted. I'm focusing on the lines that read "Before issuing a Form D authority in DCS territory, the Dispatcher must determine that the track to be used is clear outside of yard limits. Overlapping Form D authorities for opposing movements must not be issued." Are you saying two trains can receive Form D line 2 authority to travel in the same direction on the same piece of track at the same time? I hope in no way does this appear to be a personal attack. I would just appreciate if you would clarify your position so that I may understand it. Thank you for your time.

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Re: Hoosick Junction Signals

Post by Rockingham Racer » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:43 am

On the UPRR where I live, I've heard the DS ask a train to roll up a track warrant so he can issue one to a following train about 50 miles behind the first one. Is that what we're talking about here? Note, though, that this is not NORAC territory.

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Re: Hoosick Junction Signals

Post by 690 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:05 pm

Certain operating rules allow trains to give up track behind them to a following train, and with NORAC/DCS we can call clear of a milepost, which then allows the dispatcher to issue a Line 2 to a following train up to that milepost.
Before issuing a Form D authority in non-signaled DCS territory, the Dispatcher must determine that the track to be used is clear outside yard limits.

Overlapping Form D authorities for opposing movements must not be issued.
The second sentence would imply that you can give multiple Form Ds as long as the trains are operating in the same direction, but the first sentence directly contradicts that by saying the track must be determined to be clear, hence the need for the first train to call clear of a milepost before the dispatcher can give a following train a Form D up to the milepost called clear of.

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Re: Hoosick Junction Signals

Post by newpylong » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:40 pm

But you aren't talking about overlapping Line 2's are you? I don't recall any provisions to call clear without giving up your Line 2 limits at the same time?

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Re: Hoosick Junction Signals

Post by 690 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:23 pm

You can call clear of a milepost/station, and the dispatcher can then give a Form D to another train up to that point.

For example: train 1 gets a Form D to operate between west MP 1 and MP 10. Train 1 calls clear of MP 5. Now train 1’s Form D still says MP 1 to MP 10, but because they called clear of MP 5, the dispatcher can verify the track is clear, and write train 2 paper between MP 1 and MP 5. Now train 1 calls clear of MP8. Dispatcher can give train 2 a Line 2 addition to operate up to MP8. And so on.

This is possible because a Line 2 specifies a direction of travel. Even though train 1 has paper, because the direction is west, once they get paper they can’t go the opposite direction (outside of a few specific instances that aren’t really relevant to this). And a Form D with a direction specified is self-fulfilling.

A Line 2 both directions is the exception to this. You have to cancel the Form D before another train/trackcar can operate over those limits.

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