When will Philly get new trolleys?

Is Philladelphia going to order new trolleys anytime soon?

Does Philadelphia need new trolleys? Is there a refurbishment project underway?

Moderator's Note: Moved to the SEPTA and PATCO forum.

The existing non-PCC trollies (K-Cars), are, from what I 've heard, not ADA compliant.

Amtrak7 wrote:The existing non-PCC trollies (K-Cars), are, from what I 've heard, not ADA compliant.

No they are not, they were grandfathered into the various ADA acts. The 10,11,13,34 and 36 lines are all grandfathered in, however the 15 was bus a at the time and when it was reconverted 2005 it had to have wheelchair accessible equipment at all times.

As for new cars its somewhere on the 2017-2024 range as per on the last budget, which will get pushed back farther.

As long as the K cars are grandfathered, and as long as the PCCII's have wheelchair lifts, asd long as the state and federal governments have abandoned public transit....

Well, you do the math.

Besides, the K cars ar remarkably sturdy and reliable, as are most K products.

the k cars, other than being ugly as sin, are great trollies, but they are starting to show their age. breakdowns are becoming more frequent, and what with being non-ada compliant the state isn't too keen on funding another rebuild.

The CTA 2200s has the same problem - the folding "blinker" doors with two seperate doorways which are too narrow for wheelchairs. However CTA runs 2200s with 2600s, though. It wouldn't have been too hard to have the folding doors on the Kawasaki cars removed and replaced with a single wide door.

IIRC, since the K cars are/were budgeted to go through an overhaul per the proposed budget, they will only be able to be in service for another 4 years following that overhaul. This is per ADA regulations ... something about they would have to become compliant if used longer than that timeframe.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPTA#Trolley):

The vehicles used on SEPTA's Subway-Surface trolleys were built by Kawasaki in 1981. Known as "K-cars", they use the Pennsylvania trolley gauge of 5 ft 2 1⁄2 in (1,588 mm).

Uniquely, the Girard Street Line uses "PCC II" trolleys, originally built in 1947 by the St. Louis Car Company, which were rebuilt for the line's reopening in 2003 to include air conditioning. The line, like the Subway-Surface lines, is Pennsylvania trolley gauge.

The suburban trolley lines use Kawasaki-built vehicles similar to, but larger than, the Subway-Surface trolleys. They too are Pennsylvania trolley gauge. Notably, they are double ended, unlike the Subway-Surface trolleys, as the suburban lines lack any loops to turn the vehicles.

The Norristown High Speed Line uses a class of cars known as N-5s. They were delivered in 1993 by ABB after significant production delays. Unlike the rest of SEPTA's trolley lines, they are standard gauge.

I have to wonder, why not standardize? Philadelphia has four types of cars serving four systems (not counting the BSL and the MFL, but counting Girard separately) that essentially do the same thing. All of the lines use single-unit cars of roughly the same size. I understand the gauges are slightly different between suburban and subway-surface - no reason that can't be addressed with slight changes in the trucks. The larger change between Penna trolley gauge and standard gauge for Norristown can be handled with new trucks altogether. As for the ADA accessibility, wheelchair lifts are common enough that they can be specified in a high-floor car (it worked for the PCC IIs), or SEPTA could specify a high/low floor car of some sort.

Yes, I know, something about wishes and turds and seeing what fills up first. And, at least the Subway-Surface and Suburban lines use similar cars, even if the sizes are different. I just think SEPTA should do the same throughout its lines, even if it means a large standard car (S-S/Norristown) and a small standard car (suburban/Girard) with Pennsylvania gauge and standard gauge truck options.

mtuandrew wrote:From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPTA#Trolley):

The vehicles used on SEPTA's Subway-Surface trolleys were built by Kawasaki in 1981. Known as "K-cars", they use the Pennsylvania trolley gauge of 5 ft 2 1⁄2 in (1,588 mm).

Uniquely, the Girard Street Line uses "PCC II" trolleys, originally built in 1947 by the St. Louis Car Company, which were rebuilt for the line's reopening in 2003 to include air conditioning. The line, like the Subway-Surface lines, is Pennsylvania trolley gauge.

The suburban trolley lines use Kawasaki-built vehicles similar to, but larger than, the Subway-Surface trolleys. They too are Pennsylvania trolley gauge. Notably, they are double ended, unlike the Subway-Surface trolleys, as the suburban lines lack any loops to turn the vehicles.

The Norristown High Speed Line uses a class of cars known as N-5s. They were delivered in 1993 by ABB after significant production delays. Unlike the rest of SEPTA's trolley lines, they are standard gauge.

I have to wonder, why not standardize? Philadelphia has four types of cars serving four systems (not counting the BSL and the MFL, but counting Girard separately) that essentially do the same thing. All of the lines use single-unit cars of roughly the same size. I understand the gauges are slightly different between suburban and subway-surface - no reason that can't be addressed with slight changes in the trucks. The larger change between Penna trolley gauge and standard gauge for Norristown can be handled with new trucks altogether. As for the ADA accessibility, wheelchair lifts are common enough that they can be specified in a high-floor car (it worked for the PCC IIs), or SEPTA could specify a high/low floor car of some sort.

Yes, I know, something about wishes and turds and seeing what fills up first. And, at least the Subway-Surface and Suburban lines use similar cars, even if the sizes are different. I just think SEPTA should do the same throughout its lines, even if it means a large standard car (S-S/Norristown) and a small standard car (suburban/Girard) with Pennsylvania gauge and standard gauge truck options.

Well, on paper it would seem like a good idea, but there's much, much more to consider. Even if everything was the same track gauge:

1. You would not be able to use the PCC-IIs or either type of Kawasaki LRV on the NHSL due to the fact that the latter line has all high-level platforms only, as well as third rail power collection..

2. You would not be able to use the PCC-IIs in the Subway-Surface due to their lack of cab signal equipment-in my opinion, a glaring oversight.

3. You would not be able to use the City Division single-ended K-cars on either the Media, Sharon Hill, or Norristown lines due to lack of turning loops at all terminal points other than 69th Street (for Media & Sharon Hill only, not Norristown).

4. You would not be able to use the N-5 Norristown cars on any of the other three lines due to these cars' lack of low platforms. Also, they would likely be much too wide for operation over any other line, although they were built with possible overhead wire power collection in mind.

With all that, a future order for double ended, low/high platform cars (think a smaller, ADA accessible version of the cars used onPittsburgh's system) could be speci'd for the S/S, Girard, & Media/Sharon Hill lines.

I think SEPTA should get articulated LRVs for the Media/Sharon Hill lines for the next car orders(assuming they have the yard space). These lines are essentially light rail due to their interurban past, bus-sized vehicles seem a bit inadequate, especially considering their strong patronage. The K-cars on these routes are usually packed to the gills.

Girard and the SS lines can only do legacy-sized cars for turning radius reasons, but no reason they can't share a design platform with the 101/102 cars.

NHSL deserves its own unique build of car still, due to its unique operating characteristics. The next generation should bump the top speed up a bit, accompanied by improvements to track geometry (rebank the curves!). The new NHSL car should share components with the new LRV when possible though. Same builder would be ideal.

The lack of K-Car ADA compliance is a feature, not a defect and SEPTA should hang on to them as long as possible. Once public transit begins to cater to the needs of the disabled it degrades service to the point where only the disabled use it. It's why bus service in this country has become completely useless (not that I'm a fan of buses, just hate to see trolleys suffer the same fate).

Wheelchair lifts are only for wheelchairs, level access is also helpful to those with prams and shopping trolleys, and it reduces general dwell time. But that would requrie all stops to be rebuilt, 350mm platform stops provide level access but are more obtrusive that traditional street level stops. But stops on researved track they should definitely have them and underground stops are also going to need platform screen doors.
I sent a PM on Railpage to Tonyp, and also sent an email to Skoda transportation about this thread. Their ForCity has both 100% low floor and pivoting bogies, also it has as I noted before, entrance ramps at each door, if the Philladelphia versions were as wide as existing rolling stock, the entrance ramps could be longer and entrance height lower, add variable height suspension and you could have a biscuit and eat a cookie too.
But for the red arrow lines, would high platform loading be the best bet?

Both the Media & Sharon Hill lines have some street running-along Orange St. (& on a single track at that) in Media for the 101, & in Aldan for the 102. So, any conversion to all high platforms for the ex-Red Arrow lines would be problematic.