KCS/CP Merger Discussion

NotYou wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:03 pm
Only a handful of cars being interchanged w/ CSX in St. Louis surprises me. I would have thought, pure guessing no data, some of the value of the line to KCS is being their only access to CSX outside of New Orleans.

You must have missed my post of February 2nd. M-VNKC video from last fall had 43 wells of ISO containers, about half of them doublestacked, followed by 33 mixed manifest cars, plastic pellets, LPG, chemicals, etc.

My bad. I misread your post from the 19th as "only a handful of cars were destined for CSX at St. Louis" when you wrote that all but a handful were destined for CSX; which makes a lot more sense.

Messrs. JayBee and NotYou, I sincerely thank you for your research and report regarding the status of the Louisiana, Illinois bridge. My railfanning days are long in the history books (when I go to Mike Schafer's home in Lee, IL which of course is right next to the BNSF Aurora Sub for an annual pre-COVID picnic he has hosted, I simply take pictures of the "die hards" taking pictures of the "action" on a very busy single tracked road - all of which and more I can see from my front yard) so I'm not about to go camping out down there to observe KCS action (KCS power does come over the Chicago Sub).

So apparently this is a piece of railroad that can handle "anything out there". That it is 20mph is certainly warranted with both the curve and the diamond on the West bank.

But with KCS/CP being able to handle traffic expeditiously THROUGH Chicago on the 49% owned IHB (thank "my MILW" for that), might the value of that former Gateway Western routing be in question? OK; so the bridge is now in "good enough shape" to handle anything, but I'll bet "we're talkin' cabbage" to keep it that way.

But no matter how you cut up the pie, it certainly appears Chessie will be adversely affected by the KCS/CP combination. She will simply have to give up her traffic at Chicago to CP/KCS in place of E. St Louis. It would not be in CP/KCS interest to delay that traffic moving over The Harbor, lest it be diverted to Topper (or God forbid, the highways).

So CSX will start to more thoroughly exchange cars with CPKC at Chicago? Given that’s where a lot of traffic coming to my region (Central New Jersey) goes through I can’t help but wonder what that means for traffic coming into North Jersey/Central Jersey.

The Mississippi River bridge isn't the only big old bridge on the route. The Missouri River bridge at Glasgow also features many very old through truss spans, and it has trestle spans on both ends, some of which had to be replaced after the last big Missouri River flood event in 1993. At the time Gateway Western was the owner, and may have been able to access disaster relief funds to help replace the damaged spans. The bridge is a high level crossing so no draw or lift span required, but the main spans across the river are old Pratt and Parker pin-connected through trusses.

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:56 am So CSX will start to more thoroughly exchange cars with CPKC at Chicago? Given that’s where a lot of traffic coming to my region (Central New Jersey) goes through I can’t help but wonder what that means for traffic coming into North Jersey/Central Jersey.

I could see this if CP doesn't pay any IHB or BRC usage fees to interchange w/ CSX in Chicago, don't know what this situation is. Don't know all the details but due to the less-than-direct route and historical reasons, KCS isn't a member of TRRA and doesn't pay their fees. If CSX and KCS interchange for no fees in East St. Louis, but have to pay fees to interchange in Chicago, I see a fair bit of interchange staying in East St. Louis.

As a whole I’m wondering what all this means for the area I’m in. I can see some of the customers in this region getting loads from CPKC if they get can get more materials or if it’s cheaper, Woodhaven in Lakewood NJ comes to mind. They buy lumber from whoever has it cheapest, and it gets shipped down from Montana and a few places in Canada. Maybe this new route created by the merger gives them some more options if the shipping prices are cheaper…

CP - KCS merger isn't going to effect traffic going from Montana or Canadia -> NJ.

Not breaking news, but saw this article covering CN making its case for getting KCS' KC <-> STL line: https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews ... jections/ .

Article doesn't explicitly mention it, but the map from the CN filing shows KCS <-> Detroit. If CN got the line it would create 3 KCS <-> Detroit routes (NS, CP, and CN), which on paper means more competition. Not sure if there is enough traffic on this route to justify 3 different lines / routings.

Thinking about it, CP/KCS won't lose too much losing the line as the former KCS would gain an interchange with CSX in Chicago, and my current understanding is the traffic on KCS' former Alton between KCS and STL is mostly being interchanged with CSX in STL. Looking at the map, the line fits pretty nicely into CN's network.

Any points or opportunities I am missing here? Would CSX prefer keeping some of its interchange with CP/KCS in E. St. Louis instead of Chicago?

I understand that Chicago is kind of a choke point, so I would think that railroads would prefer to have options to avoid it.

CN's proposal does not avoid Chicago. It would provide a short cut across the country to get to the south side of Chicago, but they still would need the former EJ&E to get to Detroit (via the former Grand Trunk). This includes a section of track that they are leasing to CSX in Chicago.

Once again, lest we not forget "The Funk's sheet music Clef" route X-Michigan.

CN can keep traffic on their own rails through Chicago, as a physical interchange between the GTW and IC was established shortly after the merger of IC with CN.

But how CN can figure to be speed competitive with high value auto parts with its GTW-IC-IC Gillman Sub-GM&O routing (even if the Louisiana, IL bridge X-ing Ol' Man River is not the issue that concerned me), when compared with the potential CP-KCS comprising CRSA (any Detroit facility)-NYC (firm trackage rights)-IHB-MILW routing, and especially Topper's Wabash (goes nowhere near Chicago), totally escapes me

With CN's former J around Chicago, I would imagine their more circuitous routing to Detroit through Michigan via their former GTW would be the issue. Agreed w/ Mr. Norman neither CN or CP/KCS's proposed route is nearly as direct as NS'. Customers might be okay with a longer routing if the price is lower and service is reliable.

Unlike geography and routes, the Mississippi river bridge can be solved by throwing money at it.

Ok - from the STB Filing ---

CN is claiming that KCS' Springfield line is parallel track to CP's current route. CN produced the map above (as part of a 607 page filing) to illustrate the parallel. However, KCS' line ends at Springfield. CP's line ends in Chicago (the rest of the blue line is trackage rights on NS). The KCS Springfield Line does not run all the way to Chicago.

So, ignore the embellishments and understand that while the KCS line runs to the south of the CP line it doesn't reach Chicago without CN.

Also consider CN's "solution" to the alleged parallel line problem - divesting the line to CN. Take another look at the map. Look at the result of such a transfer. CN owning a line across central Illinois that is "parallel" to their line across northern Illinois. The proposed remedy is giving CN a line that runs parallel for more miles than the problem they allege exists if CP gets the KCS Springfield line.

Kind of two faced, eh Canadian National?

Mr. Lurker, I think "The Funk's sheet music Clef" routing is a bit more pronunced than their map suggests. It touches Lansing (shown), Battle Creek (sort of shown), and South Bend ("not exactly" shown).

Also, while the MILW X's Ol' Man River at Savanna (42' 5" N) - slightly N of Chicago (42' 0" N), it follows "him" South over the "Dri Line", to Davenport - and not that "bulge" shown.

I too think CN's cartographers need a visit from the "truth squad".

But when compared with the Wabash's "route of the Wabash Cannonball", neither best not get into a "speed war" with Topper. He's a Thoroughbred and he will win. Now if Topper has "stumbled" a few times too many and the auto industry's Traffic Managers have found "just in time" has proven to be hardly that , maybe the Canadian salesmen from either road can convince reliability is more important than "advertised" speed and "snitch" some of Topper's business.