North Carolina NCDOT-Amtrak Piedmont Service

When NC started the Piedmonts, they needed only a small amount of equipment (and probably had only a small amount of money). Lacking economy of scale, ordering a small amount of new equipment would have been prohibitively expensive, and Amtrak apparently didn't have spare equipment. So they bought used and rehabbed it. I don't know the answer to the second part of your question.

MACTRAXX wrote:Everyone: I read the PDF about the Raleigh station and I found the proposal for a high level platform station there
surprising...Is it the first one on Amtrak lines S of the Washington,DC area?

Would NCDOT consider using Superliner-type equipment or will all of their equipment stay primarily single level
to be compatible with Amtrak service to the Northeast Corridor region?

I do feel that using push-pull operation on these trains would make their operations easier...MACTRAXX

If the new station is high-level, then wouldn't it be incompatible with the current bilevel Superliner design?

TCRT612 wrote:

MACTRAXX wrote:Everyone: I read the PDF about the Raleigh station and I found the proposal for a high level platform station there
surprising...Is it the first one on Amtrak lines S of the Washington,DC area?

Would NCDOT consider using Superliner-type equipment or will all of their equipment stay primarily single level
to be compatible with Amtrak service to the Northeast Corridor region?

I do feel that using push-pull operation on these trains would make their operations easier...MACTRAXX

If the new station is high-level, then wouldn't it be incompatible with the current bilevel Superliner design?

Yes. But there are no Superliner trains that run that route.

TCRT612 wrote:If the new station is high-level, then wouldn't it be incompatible with the current bilevel Superliner design?

To elaborate on Mr. Moore's response, the Piedmont, the Silver Service, the Crescent and the Carolinian currently use single-level equipment with traps to access the low platforms. The Piedmont actually uses restored Heritage equipment rather than Horizons or Amfleets - see http://www.bytrain.org/equipmt.html. Only the Auto Train uses Superliners, and it doesn't stop anywhere in North Carolina except for a crew transfer. The only non-financial issue with installing high levels is maintaining freight clearance, either with gauntlet track or with retractable platforms.

Station Aficionado wrote:When NC started the Piedmonts, they needed only a small amount of equipment (and probably had only a small amount of money). Lacking economy of scale, ordering a small amount of new equipment would have been prohibitively expensive, and Amtrak apparently didn't have spare equipment. So they bought used and rehabbed it. I don't know the answer to the second part of your question.

That sounds plausible.

Just a guess, as even nicely restored heritage equipment is expensive to maintain: I would think that the Piedmonts would get some of the Horizons as the new bi-levels will free them up in the Midwest. In NC their poor performance in cold weather will be much less of an issue and aside from that they are basically good and fairly new cars.

trainviews wrote:Just a guess, as even nicely restored heritage equipment is expensive to maintain: I would think that the Piedmonts would get some of the Horizons as the new bi-levels will free them up in the Midwest. In NC their poor performance in cold weather will be much less of an issue and aside from that they are basically good and fairly new cars.

You might have a valid point, the refurbs NCRR has done to their "Heritage" rolling stock should last 10 to 15 years. By that time, many "Horizons" should be available from the Midwest. The NCRR livery should look far better than Amtrak's on them as well.

To answer the question above about operational differences in a push-pull environment ...

The answer is, it depends on how you are set up for push-pull.

The key is whether or not the actual brake control changes. If you have to cut one brake stand out, and cut another brake stand in ... that counts as a change in controlling engine (whether or not it's actually an engine).

You have to do a brake test (an intermediate test, though) in that instance.

If you are controlling the brakes by remote, and the actual brake stand doesn't change, I guess you probably just switch ends, flip the lights, and go.

At the Blue Ridge Scenic, we operate two actual locomotives -- one at each end of the train -- and switch ends completely (this is technically a "pull-pull", but the brake concept is the same); so we do a full intermediate brake test every time we do this.

With 11 passenger cars (plus the trailing locomotive) it takes about 10 minutes.

Compare to the amount of time it takes to leave a station, drive to the Wye, go around it (including throwing and un-throwing three switches), and then driving back to the station.

There's a definite operational advantage, time-wise.

I'm not 100% certain, but I remember someone telling me that the Downeaster -- which uses push-pull consists with a locomotive on one end and a NPCU on the other end -- has to do a brake test when the consist changes direction. I don't think it takes very long... certainly not as long as it would take to wye the train.

I saw am Amtrak train- I believe a Northeast Regional- heading southbound on the Northeast Corridor around Elizabeth, NJ at about 9:30am today. The locomotive, an AEM-7, was pushing a bunch of Amfleet 1s. There didn't seem to be a cab car at all. Is this normal? If so, why do some trains (i.e., NJ Transit, Metro-North, etc., and Amtrak's Keystone trains) all have cab cars? Or did I just confuse an Amfleet 1 with a cab car?

Something resembling this on the head, Mr. Southern?

http://www.hebners.net/amtrak/amtCONTROL/amt9643.jpg

"Southbound about 930A" would be Keystone #663.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Something resembling this on the head, Mr. Southern?

http://www.hebners.net/amtrak/amtCONTROL/amt9643.jpg

"Southbound about 930A" would be Keystone #663.

No, it looked like a regular Amfleet 1- I was surprised because I thought that (1) the only Amtrak push-pull trains on the NEC are Keystones but (2) there was no cab car.

Out of all the trains in the Amtrak system, one would think that the Springfield-New Haven Shuttle trains would be in push-pull operation. Some consists are, I believe, but others are not. I've seen consists with a P42 on both ends. A de-motorized F40 would seem to fit the bill well for this service, or a cab car. However, I think the later are growing more and more in short supply.

It seemed that all consists "had" cab cars as the Keystone line was getting ready for its return to "all-electric service" (and using cab car operation). Amtrak had to overhaul a fleet of cab cars for the Keystone service. Often they were sent for testing on the Springfield-New Haven line. This was also when the Vermonter seemed to operate "more" with a cab car than what it ever had in the past (cab car forward-leading between New Haven and Palmer Junction only).

I will say that the whole operation of a cab car decreased the running time of the Keystone trains when "all-electric service" was restored, as the engineer could just move from operating the electric motor to operating the cab car (switching ends). Dwell times at Philly were greatly reduced and the labor costs of switching engines also went away.

The only train now "changing engines" at Philly on a regular schedule is the Pennsylvanian. Be nice to see this train have its "switching" move dropped in its travels. The simplest way I think would be to put an electric motor on one end and a P42 on the other and operate similiarly as the NJT ACES train used to run. But this I think is easier "said" than done.

I would just think that eliminating the "labor costs" of switching engines for this lone train at Philly 30th Street Station would somehow be looked at more carefully to come up with a solution to avoid what is likely a costly maneuver. But the Pennsylvanian needs diesel and electric power for the run on its route. I almost wonder if it could run with a cab car out to Harrisburg and then add the diesel (P42) with what road crew may exist there. Again, not sure if this move is more economical or not - does Harrisburg have the capability at present to do this maneuver? All I know is that I would not want to be down below the high level platform and disconnecting and re-connecting the train lines when an engine change takes place at 30th Street Philly!

jp1822 wrote:Out of all the trains in the Amtrak system, one would think that the Springfield-New Haven Shuttle trains would be in push-pull operation. Some consists are, I believe, but others are not. I've seen consists with a P42 on both ends. A de-motorized F40 would seem to fit the bill well for this service, or a cab car. However, I think the later are growing more and more in short supply.

Weren't the burned-out AEM-7s supposed to become NPCUs as well? That should relieve the shortage and give a NYP-compatible cab for the Vermonter, the Keystones, the Shuttles and the Empire Service. The Carolinian could use them too, if they decided to go fully push-pull on the NCRR.

Why are there so few cab cars? Metro-North and NJ Transit seem to have one on most every locomotive-hauled train- why doesn't Amtrak?

Station Aficionado wrote:The issue that sometimes arises is whether the seats get flipped, or you make half the people ride backwards.

It really makes no difference in the end, people get on & off and what direction they sit in doesn't matter.