SEPTA NJT COOPERATION idea

If the NJT Super Expresses were ever turned back into Clockers running them to the airport would be more than a little amusing. Forgetting the single track bottle neck as has already been mentioned you would have to board people based on their terminals because the train would stretch across at least two terminals at a time. These trains currently run mostly with 9 multi-levels although a few of them have reverted to Comets and even Arrows recently but they're just as packed now as when they were 10 and 11 car heritage coahces. Add in more people and you'll need at least one more car and good luck with luggage.

Suburban Station wrote:the clockers were sacrificed for midtown direct service no? secondly, it doesn't offer that much value. express service could be offered from paoli via the extant Pittsburgh subway. lastly, a far cheaper solution would be to pay Amtrak to lower it's fares on the Keystone.

The Clockers were not sacrificed for Midtown Direct service, rather the Clockers still run the same route per se under 3900 series trains and terminate/originate at Morrisville Yard instead of Philadelphia.

cpontani wrote:Yes, that run along 25th St. would be an excellent corridor for frequent (say half-hourly) service through South Philly, a neighborhood completely devoid of regional rail service. Especially once they knock down the Spectrum, there would be demand for service. And regional rail service would get people off the BSL on heavily traveled event days at the connection at City Hall, and make better connections to the burbs. The circuitous route is moot, since the R1 doesn't go over the river (or under), but rather the round-about way, and back-tracks through the terminals. But say you build a flyover off the NEC (like the R1), I'd still build a new terminal north of Greenwich Yard in one of the parking lots of the Stadium Complex.

However, there is no connection to the NEC, and you're NOT going to gunk things up by having a reverse on it. And would this REALLY be the biggest priority for Septa?

As for NJT to the airport, the R1 already has that single-tracked bottleneck. You'd need to address that before sending NJT or Amtrak into there. And do they really want to?

NJ Transit just built a connection to the Meadowlands which has allowed direct rail service to events there. This would essentially be the same thing although with the redevelopment in the area regular service might at some point make sense -- even if NJ Transit is not allowed to participate. However, whether it's the airport, Clocker service or the sports complex it seems to me Philly would benefit greatly by making it easier for the residents of its NJ suburbs to get in and out of town more quickly and efficiently.

Someone used the words SEPTA and cooperation in the same sentence?

Red Arrow Fan wrote:Someone used the words SEPTA and cooperation in the same sentence?

eh, how about SEPTA, Amtrak, and NJT in the same sentence? they're all their only little fiefdoms. if anyone needs to cooperate, it's NJT and Metro North to free up station capacity at Penn Station. their trains should also size better.

FRN9 wrote:What about the question of whether there ever was passenger service on this line? Does anyone know?

If you're talking about the railroad's 25th St branch, as far as I know there was never regular passenger service, but there were special trains for the Army-Navy game. I assume they came from somewhere that drew from Annapolis and West Point, and probably did not stop at 30th St.
Unless the tracks, which are now on the other side of I95 from the stadiums, have been moved It's still a long walk from there to where JFK-Muncicipal stadium used to be, now the Corestates-First Union-Wachovia-TD Bank center. But it might not be much more than the walk from the Broad St subway, 14th St, to the new football and baseball stadiums which are around 11th St.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder whether it makes sense to restructure how rail is organized in this country.

With the new HSR initiatives would it be a good idea to have more locally managed, but federally funded rail groups based on region?

I'm thinking that California would be an obvious choice with their new HSR system, but also the Midwest, the Texas T(riangle) and the Southeast corridor.

The idea for the Northeast would be a to create a new regional rail authority that would include Amtrak's assets for the region and the regional rail transportation systems in it to (MARC, SEPTA, NJT, MetroNorth, LIRR, CDOT's SLE, MBTA). There entities would remain separate in brand and some areas would still be under local control, but certain areas would be managed centrally (not from Washington). Perhaps Philadelphia or New York would be a good HQ for this new entity.

Goals would be to:

1. save money through fleet unification (making larger orders with more bargaining power), sharing in overhead expenses IT systems, advertising, etc,

2. The rail system is integral to the smart growth of the region, by removing the national agenda from the equation, then the new entity can be more focused on supporting that goal. Interconnectivity among the local systems would be smart here. Under this new order, why not run local trains from DC to NYC and NYC to Boston? The cost would be the same as the present systems, but there would be unity--seemless commuting.

3. Connectivity with other regional transportation systems would be a priority as well, so regional connections to airports, such as the conversation on sending NJT trains to the Philadelphia airport or terminating NJT trains at Jamaica and MetroNorth trains at Newark Airport would fit into this idea.

The structure of this new entity could be similar to the MTA, but on a multi-state level with governors appointing representatives with differing numbers of votes based on size of each regional system. Delaware would have fewer votes than Pennsylvania for example.

The organization would be public/private and managed by a professional manager accountable to the states and fed gov as share holders.

This may sound unrealistic, but most new ideas usually do and in terms of political power to get this through Congress, all of the Senate seats and most house seats in this region are controlled by the Democrats who control all three branches of government. If the Senators from the region are convinced it is best for the region, then I think it could easily happen.

NY Penn station to Jenkintown via the NJT Rairitan/SEPTA R3 line would be the best and easiest. I'd bet my life that ridership would far exceed it's expectation before the first train would reach it's terminus.

Why terminate in jenkitown instead of going all the way to 30 street or even phila intl airport?

FRN9 wrote:Why terminate in jenkitown instead of going all the way to 30 street or even phila intl airport?

Because you already have SEPTA R7 and Amtrak servicing those locations. Jenkintown service would be great for all the Bucks and Montco residents who work in NY and don't want to have to drive to Trenton or ride to 30th st. for a connection to NY. Not to mention all the riders it would attract that don't want all that hustle and bustle of getting to NY. With that kinda of service I'd go to NY more often. Also at Jenkintown enough SEPTA trains stop there that go to the Airport and 30th st without having to wait forever. BTW, who from NY wants to go to PIA when they have 3 Airports of their own in the NY metro area???

RDGFan40 wrote:

FRN9 wrote:Why terminate in jenkitown instead of going all the way to 30 street or even phila intl airport?

Because you already have SEPTA R7 and Amtrak servicing those locations. Jenkintown service would be great for all the Bucks and Montco residents who work in NY and don't want to have to drive to Trenton or ride to 30th st. for a connection to NY. Not to mention all the riders it would attract that don't want all that hustle and bustle of getting to NY. With that kinda of service I'd go to NY more often. Also at Jenkintown enough SEPTA trains stop there that go to the Airport and 30th st without having to wait forever. BTW, who from NY wants to go to PIA when they have 3 Airports of their own in the NY metro area???

People from Southern New Jersey would go to PIA.

If the train goes all the way to Jenkintown, there's no reason not to go all the way to 30th street at least. Again, people from South NJ commuting to Center City Philadelphia and people who want a one seat ride to NYC without paying Amtrak and vice versa.

FRN9 wrote:

RDGFan40 wrote:

FRN9 wrote:Why terminate in jenkitown instead of going all the way to 30 street or even phila intl airport?

Because you already have SEPTA R7 and Amtrak servicing those locations. Jenkintown service would be great for all the Bucks and Montco residents who work in NY and don't want to have to drive to Trenton or ride to 30th st. for a connection to NY. Not to mention all the riders it would attract that don't want all that hustle and bustle of getting to NY. With that kinda of service I'd go to NY more often. Also at Jenkintown enough SEPTA trains stop there that go to the Airport and 30th st without having to wait forever. BTW, who from NY wants to go to PIA when they have 3 Airports of their own in the NY metro area???

People from Southern New Jersey would go to PIA.

If the train goes all the way to Jenkintown, there's no reason not to go all the way to 30th street at least. Again, people from South NJ commuting to Center City Philadelphia and people who want a one seat ride to NYC without paying Amtrak and vice versa.

This line wouldn't go through South Jersey though. It would travel through parts of the nebulously-defined Central Jersey, which all use Newark Airport mostly because its by far the easiest to get to (does not involve travelling across the core of a metropolitan area, unlike PHI, JFK, and LGA)

FRN9 wrote:Why terminate in jenkitown instead of going all the way to 30 street or even phila intl airport?

1--Most of the potential commuter ridership is in Bucks and Montgomery counties (we'll assume for planning purposes there's also a one-seat ride available on the ex-PRR at a reasonable fare). There's a DVRPC study (look for an article on it in an upcoming DVARP newsletter) on the origin points of commuters boarding at Trenton and Hamilton, showing that quite a lot of them are in the area served by the West Trenton branch.

2--It avoids the challenges (grades/ventilation) of operating into and through the tunnel

3--It lets you yard the trains at Roberts if you wanted to

4--It avoids running a lot of empty seats down into Center City and onto the other half of the system.

Matt,

NJT will have dual modes and besides that they should invest in electrifying the RVL and West Trenton branch.

The yard at 30 street could be used and people in Central NJ should have the option to go to Philadelphia proper.

Amtrak is expensive and the change from the R7 to NJT is messy and laborious.

Also, why can't NJT crews work the entire line? Is this some kind of union issue?

Agreed that there are good reasons for Philadelphia-North Jersey via West Trenton to be a one-seat ride, but they're not enough to justify the additional operating costs. Look at projected ridership on the Bound Brook-West Trenton segment, the West Trenton-Jenkintown segment, and the Jenkintown-Philadelphia segment, and you'll understand why such a through service is a low priority.

Offering a one-seat ride via Trenton (obviating the transfer and the stratospheric Amtrak fares) is a much more rational move, and would likely happen long before a one-seat ride via West Trenton.

The longer these trips are, the more equipment they tie up unproductively.