Moving with doors open

I posted earlier on my Port Jervis trip over the summer that NJT sometimes leaves doors open when arriving or departing HOB. But this time, as I was on an Arrow, crossing over the Morris & Essex tracks to NWK, I spotted a diesel by the Post Office with 5 vestibule doors open outbound. If the doors are open now, my impression is that they were open since HOB, and the train could've reached some speeds before it slowed down over the NEC, no? When do they close the doors, and what is the primary reason for leaving them open?

I first saw vestibule doors open in transit on the Boston T RR a couple of years ago.

Sometimes, you say...?

Used to be common practice. I recall Arrows running with doors open at 100 mph all the time on the NEC. They were opened (and kept open) when the next station was a low platform stop. Dangerous practice, too; I'm surprised that OSHA hasn't been in a greater rage over it. The doors of the old Lackawanna MUs were open all the time, that I remember; and so were the end doors of Arrows when the Morris & Essex was re-electrified back in '84. Same applied to the Comet IIs, RDCs, other older equipment.

Modern solutions include "long doors", which were introduced on the Comet III (but when the Arrow IIIs were rebuilt, they didn't get them, which I disapproved of), and the automatic trapdoor such as used on the Kawasaki bilevels that VRE runs.

I'm surprised that it took seeing an MBTA train running with doors open for you to find out about the practice; it used to abound on NJT (still does on Arrow locals on the M&E that I recall); it still abounds on SEPTA, and elsewhere where railcars have manual trapdoors.

Irish Chieftain wrote:Sometimes, you say...?

Used to be common practice. I recall Arrows running with doors open at 100 mph all the time on the NEC. They were opened (and kept open) when the next station was a low platform stop. Dangerous practice, too; I'm surprised that OSHA hasn't been in a greater rage over it. The doors of the old Lackawanna MUs were open all the time, that I remember; and so were the end doors of Arrows when the Morris & Essex was re-electrified back in '84. Same applied to the Comet IIs, RDCs, other older equipment.

No problem. Just stay out of the vestibule until the train stops, just like the signs say.

Not so easy to do during rush hour. And being short on cars is no help. (If all the people in the end vestibules had to travel inside the cars, there would be no room for the trainmen to move about, and people would be crowded on top of one another.)

Yeah, running with doors open is a common practice for low level stops with MUs on the M&E, Comet IBs on the NJCL, RVL and M&E/M/B/P/PJ, and Comet Is on the M&E/M/B/P/PJ. On the Gladstone, sometimes west of Summit, trains will run with all doors open on both sides. I find this to be a dagnerous practice- but it is allowed. Trains are allowed to do this with the MUs, CIs and CIBs during rush hour on peak direction trains.

Luckily though, with the long door equipment, this doesn't happen (or at least it almost doesn't happen.) The only way you could run with doors open on the newer trains is if the door bypass was on and if the individual door motors were physically disabled. Whenever the throttle is drawn, the doors will attempt to shut (whether or not in door bypass.) If the door safetys are in bypass when the throttle is drawn, the train will start moving and the doors will shut (if the motor isn't disabled or if their isn't a malfunction.) If the safetys are on, then the doors will shut upon drawing of the throttle but the train will not generate traction until all doors are closed. I believe that is how it works.

nick11a wrote:Yeah, running with doors open is a common practice for low level stops with MUs on the M&E, Comet IBs on the NJCL, RVL and M&E/M/B/P/PJ, and Comet Is on the M&E/M/B/P/PJ. On the Gladstone, sometimes west of Summit, trains will run with all doors open on both sides. I find this to be a dagnerous practice- but it is allowed. Trains are allowed to do this with the MUs, CIs and CIBs during rush hour on peak direction trains.

Again, only dangerous when someone does something stupid or disregards posted warnings. We've run with the doors open for years during peak periods, which is permissible BTW, without incident for the most part.

thebigc wrote:

nick11a wrote:Yeah, running with doors open is a common practice for low level stops with MUs on the M&E, Comet IBs on the NJCL, RVL and M&E/M/B/P/PJ, and Comet Is on the M&E/M/B/P/PJ. On the Gladstone, sometimes west of Summit, trains will run with all doors open on both sides. I find this to be a dagnerous practice- but it is allowed. Trains are allowed to do this with the MUs, CIs and CIBs during rush hour on peak direction trains.

Again, only dangerous when someone does something stupid or disregards posted warnings. We've run with the doors open for years during peak periods, which is permissible BTW, without incident for the most part.

Yup. It is allowed during designated periods. I don't think it is allowed during weekends and on non-peak trains (although I have seen it done during these times.) I also love all of the people who insist on detraining before the train comes to a full stop. Although I shouldn't talk, as I myself did it once way back. But in all seriousness, it is unsafe because people ignore the warnings as you said BigC. Don't ride or walk through the vestibules, never get on or off a moving train etc.

But in all seriousness, it is unsafe because people ignore the warnings as you said BigC

I already mentioned that riding in vestibules is often unavoidable during rush hours. I haven't seen or heard of NJT personnel preventing people from having to ride in the end vestibules when the cars are full-up, either. I'm glad to see that the numbers of cars lacking long-doors are steadily diminishing or disappearing, but you aren't going to jam people into an already-full car when there is room in the end vestibule to ride. I've seen this with my own eyes for year upon year.

Running with the doors open on both sides is STRICTLY prohibited when the open door policy is in effect.

It's still done on the M&E locals into Hoboken.

Irish Chieftain wrote:It's still done on the M&E locals into Hoboken.

Yup. Passengers even enter an exit on the side of the train not on the platform.

nick11a wrote:Yeah, running with doors open is a common practice for low level stops with MUs on the M&E, Comet IBs on the NJCL, RVL and M&E/M/B/P/PJ, and Comet Is on the M&E/M/B/P/PJ.

Until recently, this was also common on the 1st 6 MU coaches on Jersey Avenue locals (NEC). Nothing like standing in an open vestibule when a Clocker blows by @ 110mph; definite eye opener there.

However, the train crew now opens up as we roll onto the Jersey Avenue spur as opposed to on track 4 now (previously). I guess the idea of a rider falling out, with his/her body ricocheting between both trains (Clocker & MU) led to this new practice.

Running with the doors open and people standing in the vestibules will be a problem in the middle of next week on late afternoon trains as a precurser to an upcoming religious holiday. I remember one such day years ago, my normal train arrived at Newark completely full except the end vestibule, so we were all forced to stand in the end, the non-control cab end an Arrow. It was so hot, the ticket guy opened the door a few times while running down the NEC which made the people next to him very nervous. As he got off at Jersey Ave. to go home, I asked if it was ok for me to close the trap when we started move this way, the door would shut. The answer was a nice yes.