PV attached to freight trains - possible?

Hello
regarding to THIS TOPIC [PV attached to Amtrak trains]:
Is it possible to travel in a private railraod car on rear of a freight train?

Pictures are very rare, but they exist, for example this.

Can everybody travel on rear of a freight train (if enough money is present) ??

Does anybody know the cost for such a trip??

From the Amtrak Topic:

Amtrak
Annual Access Fee: $4,000.00. A yearly "tax" imposed by David Gunn.
Mileage: $1.75 per mile (additional cars moving together on same movement request are $1.30 per mile per car)
Switching: Generally no charge for switching from inbound train to outbound train, or to/from parking, or turning/wyeing cars, at terminals.
Parking: Generally $75 per night. Selected stations are higher. Boston South Station is $300. New Orleans in $75 plus a city tax. Parking surcharge is imposed for special events such as The Superbowl.
Tax: Either it is included in the tariff rates, or there is no tax.

Via Rail Canada
Annual Access Fee: None
Mileage: $3.55 per mile. No discount for second or additional cars moving on same movement request.
Switching: $410 per switch move. Cutting/adding (car set out or picked up without a switcher) $285 per move. Turning/wyeing $285 per move.
Parking: $350 per day occupied parking. Any portion oif a day parked at a Via facility is billed as a whole day.
Tax: Levied on all Via charges. I've never paid less than 7 percent taxes.

For what does 'PV' stands for ? I know that a private railraod car is called 'PV', but why ?

Greets

PV stand for "Private Varnish", a hold over term from the days when passenger cars were made of wood and were often works of art on the inside.

I have no idea whether any RR would carry PV's (other than their own business cars) but I can see some big problems:

Frieght trains generally don't run straight through routes like passenger trains, they travel from one main yard to another and then layover while the consists are reconfigured for the next leg - cars cut off and added, etc. A Chicago to Los Angeles trip could take five or six days.

Also, today, many railyards, especially the intermodal yards, are secured places and the RR's just aren't going to let the public inside.

The PV would have to supply it's own (electric) power which might tax the cars generator (and it's fuel supply) beyond its capability for a long trip, since today, most PV's have been Amtrakized to rely on head end power.

The RR's gave up on "mixed" trains many moons ago.

A more likely scenario would be for several PV's to group together and "convince" the RR to pull them for here to there as a train onto itself (as will Amtrak on occasion). The AAPRCO web site and train publications report such occurances every once in a while.

There are many short lines that would be willing to operate mixed consists, but they would probably prefer to pull the private cars separately.

Mr. Scoring, PV is the formal AAR mechanical designation for a car that is a "Private car used as officer's or private individual's car and railroad pay car - usually composed of sleeping compartments, observation end and with kitchen, servant's quarters and toilet and bathroom"

Source: Association of American Railroads; Classification of Cars...Adopted 1910.

Private Varnish is a name adopted by a trade group; theAAPRCO

These cars may have been in freight movement vice passenger movement. They may have simply been deadheaded from point A to point B for something to happen to them.

From their paint scheme, the flat-top has markings similar to SILVER IRIS, found in leased service from the AAPRCO website. The fact they have common painting (blue pier panels, yellowish nameboards) implies common ownership.

I wonder , do the frieght railroads charge similiar rates to Amtrak to deadhead cars ?

John_Perkowski wrote:These cars may have been in freight movement vice passenger movement. They may have simply been deadheaded from point A to point B for something to happen to them.

Sure, this is possible!

The PV would have to supply it's own (electric) power which might tax the cars generator (and it's fuel supply) beyond its capability for a long trip, since today, most PV's have been Amtrakized to rely on head end power.

So there are no completely independent PV railcar, nowhere ?! That's too bad!

I thought / hoped their are a few freight trains, that run very long distance without stopping to cut off / add cars.

And i dont think that it is a big problem to make a PV completely independent for a week or two.

Thx a lot

David Benton wrote:I wonder , do the frieght railroads charge similiar rates to Amtrak to deadhead cars ?

Freight power & Amtrak equipment mix when Amtrak's road power needs an assist, or wrecked equipment is being forwarded for repair or scrapping.

When Amtrak's sole remaining dome, 10031, needs to be repositioned, its often times cut in between the power and the consist.

I recall when Amtrak was ferrying long strings of express cars, some freight r.r.s objected to the practice of Amtrak running freight trains.

* JB *

Scoring Guy wrote:Also, today, many railyards, especially the intermodal yards, are secured places and the RR's just aren't going to let the public inside.

Or outside ... of an occupied PV. I'm not sure I'd want to wander a yard at oh-dark-thirty in search of a convenice store.

Scoring Guy wrote:The PV would have to supply it's own (electric) power which might tax the cars generator (and it's fuel supply) beyond its capability for a long trip, since today, most PV's have been Amtrakized to rely on head end power.

I would suspect anyone who could swing the $5k day rate for a PV charter could factor in on-the-road fuel deliveries if the planned itenerary featured lots of beyond-the-HEP-jumper running.

Also, back in Amtrak's recent foray into the express business, did non-HEP-pass-through express boxcars operate between the passenger cars and PV(s)? In that case, a generator would be required to run for the duration of the trip.

Scoring Guy wrote:A more likely scenario would be for several PV's to group together and "convince" the RR to pull them for here to there as a train onto itself (as will Amtrak on occasion). The AAPRCO web site and train publications report such occurances every once in a while.

Those would be the annual convention trips. Typically, trains are operated from the west (LA) or east (Chicago) to wherever the convention is being held. Sometimes, these trains are combined to cover additional milage. At the convention, the train is broken up into cuts. There is a schedule of public and private visiting hours for, in turn, various cuts of cars.

While not an APPRCO member, I do subscribe to Private Varnish. It's my understanding these convention trips take quite a bit of effort on the part of many individuals to bring off ... though I suppose if Bill Gates can run a private train, I suppose all it takes is deep pockets.

* JB *

Lest we forget,

Amtrak was not the first to use "Head End Power." Both the early Cities streamliners of the UP and the early Zephyrs of the CB&Q tried the concept.

The problem was the concept was ahead of the technology.

Most cars of the streamliner era had their own independent generator sets for A/C and hotel power.

The PV of today have generators, A/C, and white/gray water for their own operations.

BTW, the railroads ran (and in some cases run) their business cars as the markers of the their freights.

Mr Deasy can provide us his thoughts, but I suspect the answer will have something to do with the words: Massive Liability Insurance!

John_Perkowski wrote:BTW, the railroads ran (and in some cases run) their business cars as the markers of the their freights.

Mr Deasy can provide us his thoughts, but I suspect the answer will have something to do with the words: Massive Liability Insurance!

That's correct. Concern would be the abrupt stop as slack is taken up under certain conditions. It was not uncommon for caboose crews to be injured under such circumstances. It's my understanding that larger railroads will move PVs in regular freights, but only if unoccupied.

PV's on freight? Anything is possible, yes, and why not? Several problems: Put car on head end and it has to pull a whole train on it's drawbar, sometimes not a good idea. Put car on hind end of long train and the slack action could pull the drawbar right out while throwing everything inside all over the walls and cieling, including occupants. But a short freight at 35 or less mph, wouldn't be too bad. If the railroad wants to do it, it will. If the car owner wants to do it, he probably has the ways to pay for it.