Sleeper fares - Reasonable or "Otherwise"?

If you're single and on a budget, a deluxe room probably isn't going to be your first choice of accommodation anyway.

I agree--but hsr_fan explicitly told us that he must have a private toilet and shower for the CHI-LAX leg of the trip. Not sure what that's about, but there it is.

The most important strategy for making sleeper travel fit the budget is to travel with a companion. People who travel some distance by sleeper, particularly in a deluxe, generally do.

hsr_fan wrote:Granted, coach fares are more in line with airline fares, but who would sit in coach for 2 or 3 days when they can fly and get to their destination in a few hours?

Well, if you'd actually bother to ride a long-distance train (oh, that's right, too expensive, you'd rather fly), you could board in Chicago and walk through the coaches and count all those LAX and FUL tags above the seats (or SEA/PDX, EMY, SAS, ELP, TUS, etc., you get the idea). I've done it. So have dozens of others on each train Amtrak operates, every day of the year.

That's ignoring the many, many more folks that are only going half way, or less than half way, or are boarding somewhere down the line. That's the efficiency of a train. Even if NOBODY rode CHI-LAX in coach, there are still going to be a bunch of people in coach throughout the trip. Those of us that actually ride long-distance trains (vs. whining about the fares) know that because we see and talk with these people throughout the trip.

mattfels wrote:I agree--but hsr_fan explicitly told us that he must have a private toilet and shower for the CHI-LAX leg of the trip. Not sure what that's about, but there it is.

Indeed, sharing communal facilities for 3 days doesn't seem like much fun to me. What can I say - I guess I'm spoiled.

I'm one of those that has done the ALB-LA and back trips (not quite NYC, but that wouldn't have changed the price much.)

Specifically, LSL to Chicago standard room). SW to LA (with a 3 day layover in flagstaff) (Deluxe to Flagstaff, standard from there to LA).

LA to San Francisco (coach) and then San Francisco to Chicago (Deluxe) and then back to ALB (standard).

Granted, it was a special occasion, our honeymoon, but the price seemed reasonable. We saw a lot of the country. Were able to check our backpacks on and off the train w/o any issues.

Now, that's obviously NOT a business trip. But not many business folks can afford to take 3 days to get across country.

For a business trip, I've done ALB-CHI via the LSL in a standard sleeper. Cost was about the same as flying. Specifically in this case though, my destination was in Wisconsin (which upped the flying cost some compared to staying directly in Chicago) and upped my driving time by several hours each way.

Overall though, I only "lost" about 1/2 day of work due to the extra time the train/drive took compared to fly/drive. (and even then with laptop/cell phone I was quite productive.)

So, in some cases, the costs are quite reasonable, both time-wise and money-wise.

My more recent long-distance trip, ALB to ATL was all on coach. As that was personal, I was being cheap. Though the sleeper was very reasonably priced and tempting. (Next February when I do the trip again I'll probably do a sleeper home.)

And btw.... personally I find "first class" on a train to be worth it far more than on a plane. On a plane I may get a wider seat, first one/off and free drinks, but the view is no better and my ability to work is no better and these days, the chance for a meal isn't much better.

On a train, I get "free" meals, privacy, more space to stretch out and do work, etc. Just in productivity alone, a train can give me huge gains over a plane.

Hope that helps answer some of the original question.

hsr_fan wrote:[S]haring communal facilities for 3 days doesn't seem like much fun to me.

In other words, the most important elements of the trip in question would be . . . the toilet and shower. Glad we cleared that up.

mattfels wrote:In other words, the most important elements of the trip in question would be . . . the toilet and shower. Glad we cleared that up.

Where exactly did I say that? I said I would prefer to have a private toilet and shower, and apparently, I'm not the only one who feels that way. If these features weren't considered preferable by many, then Amtrak wouldn't include them as part of its premium accomodations.

hsr_fan wrote:Indeed, sharing communal facilities for 3 days doesn't seem like much fun to me. What can I say - I guess I'm spoiled.

Guess so. Then again, using the "facilities" isn't the fun part of the trip anyway. (Well, it shouldn't be.)

hsr_fan wrote: I'm a single guy making a decent salary as an aerospace engineer, and the prices seem way out of my range. Who's paying these fares? Wealthy retired folks? Wall St investment bankers? People who are bad at math? I can't see too many middle class families shelling out the kind of cash Amtrak is demanding!

OK, I'll wade into this fight

I too, am a single guy who makes a decent salary (software engineer) and I like to take a train trip every year. Not from a railfan perspective, just because I like the mode of transport. Love to see the country from a train.

Personally, I plan ahead and book ahead (usually in January for a summer trip), and go with a standard bedroom. Just as, if I were taking a vacation by air, I would plan ahead and book ahead (in January...) and fly coach. I find it compares *very* favorably to air, especially because I always break it up into several stops.

For instance, I am taking a trip in July and am going from Seattle to:
Sacramento
Omaha
Chicago
New York
Portland (Maine)
Boston
Grand Canyon
Los Angeles
San Luis Obispo
San Francisco

If I were doing this by air, it would take a few less days but would cost *lots* more than what I am paying for this trip - especialy when you consider hotel - and I'd be flying a some tacky airline that allows one-way tickets (Southwest?). I know because I priced it out. And driving, even back when I was estimating it before today's gas prices, is out of the question.

I've found that any jump from a standard bedroom to a deluxe is a quantam leap in price, and since I'm travelling by myself, I don't really need one. The whole bathroom thing doesn't really bother me. I find I spend most of my day in the lounge anyway - just go to my room for naps and for bed at night.

So that's my perspective. I think it's a good bargain, if you know what you are doing.

Marketing rule #1:

Price your wares at 'whatever the market will bear'.

At one point, I was the sole source provider for some very-specific computer software. My prices were OUTRAGEOUS! Yet I got paid!

In short, if you can sell all the inventory you have, then raise the price until nobody is buying! Then you've gone too far!

Remember, too, that the deluxe room occupies the space of 8 coach seats, and includes meals!

Hmm--

Talk about the "Night Owls' around here. I had retired for the evening before this one even got fired up.

I've noted some "potty talk" here; the best solution for a single traveler on a Superliner unwilling to "spring" for a Deluxe yet desiring to be near the "facilities" is to book a Lower Level Standard (Roome 11-14). There, from the friendly confines of your own room, a quick peek down the hall towards the "facilities' enables you to see whether a "potty" or the communal shower are open. You are only some 20' away, so "go for it".

Presently, only manual access (AKA a live reservationist) can cat you a Lower Standard, but I would think to perfect the web reservations to enable a Lower to be reserved would not be all that "Hurculean". After all, the system can reserve a Lower Level Coach seat.

Another++++ for the Lower Standard; the ride is smoother - something to be mindful of if CSX is your host road (as it is for most any trip I seem to make).

It's true that sleepers, especially deluxe ones, are expensive, but I find that travel in sleepers is a unique, pleasurable experience. This gets lost in some of the price comparisons on this and other threads. I certainly couldn't afford to go on weekly, or even monthly, sleeper trips, especially since I do like having the facilities in my room. But instead of comparing a trip on a sleeper to a trip on a plane, maybe we should compare the price to a trip to Disney World. I spent megabucks taking my family there. We flew from EWR to Orlando and back. For my part, I would have had more fun, for less money, taking Amtrak to Orlando and back after putting the wife and kids on a plane.

I think, Mr. Grossman, some of the "numbers" I've heard reported for that "rite of passage" to Disneyland, comprising air transportation, rented auto, a "mid-level" (such as the Caribbean Beach) hotel, chow, and the inenvtable array of Disney merchandise, can run in the range of $7K for a one week hitch - and that doesn't even include the cruise that I guess is now being marketed as a "must".

A one week summer season rail cruise with a Deluxe and Standard for the family of four would price out "mighty competitive".

It occurs to me that it might be pertinent to explain that "communal" facilities on trains are indeed quite private - for the time you are using them at least. Each one, including the shower, is a private space with toilet, sink, and full-length locking door (like an airplane). The shower is also yours and yours alone for the duration of your use. The attendants (in my experience) are very concientious about making sure all facilities are presentable. They can't get in there after every use, but if they "need attention" (as we would say in the hotel biz) all you have to do is ask them to fix it - or use another one.

In short - it's not a "locker room" scenario

Private is right. Heck, on my last LSL trip I think I was the only one to use the shower in my car. :-)

In all of this I haven't really seen an answer to the original question. Who is paying the high sleeper fares? HSR is right, sleeper fares for cross country travel are out of reach for many. But Matt is right, too, that such trips are not typical.

Nobody has yet mentioned that the average trip length on a long distance train runs between 750 and 1,100 miles depending on the route. In practical terms this usually involves only one night. Personally, I have found trips of that length to be quite competitive with coach airfares, when two people share a Standard room. It is also competitive with driving, when one factors in a motel and meals.

But just because longer trips are not "typical" does not mean that cross country trips are uncommon, and that puts us back to the original question. Deluxe rooms for that distance are indeed VERY expensive, well out of reach for the average person. Therefore one must conclude for multi-night trips, deluxe rooms are inhabitated by the more wealthy among us. A Standard room would probably be within reach of a couple of more modest means, but for multiple nights it would still be more of a "splurge" item than a routine.

Before I go, I want to address a couple of Gilbert's points:

Gilbert B Norman wrote: Presently, only manual access (AKA a live reservationist) can cat you a Lower Standard, but I would think to perfect the web reservations to enable a Lower to be reserved would not be all that "Hurculean". After all, the system can reserve a Lower Level Coach seat.

I agree wholeheartedly. I have written Amtrak and asked for that ability. Perhaps if more people did they would do it.

Another++++ for the Lower Standard; the ride is smoother - something to be mindful of if CSX is your host road (as it is for most any trip I seem to make).

On our last trip I intentionally booked an upstairs room northbound and downstairs southbound, just for the purpose of comparing ride quality. I was surprised to find that the differences were negligible. I wasn't expecting that at all. And we have some pretty rough track on the UP coast line.