Lake Shore Limited - New Schedule

Please note that when contracts are worked out between Amtrak and the host railroad generally a slot or slots will be made for the train(s) if you are on schedule and fall into your slot, generally no problems if your out of your slot than you are at the mercy of the dispatcer.

I do not know how the UP contract is written, but in the northeast on CSX, CP, Metro North incentives will be paid by the host if they run us on time. If a delay can be traced back to the host railroad which causes a "lost train" ie late arrival at the final destination or onto or off of a railroads property then the host pays Amtrak. We must keep very detailed delay reports for this very reason, most trains cover two or three of the above mentioned railroads.

It would be great if the freight guys wuold run us instead of treating us like dirt. But if the chief says run Q116 before Amtrak what choice is the dispatcher have? Some dispatchers dont understand the whole incentive thing or just dont like Amtrak. As I have stated before there are managers at host railroads who do nothing but try to improve OTP of Amtrak trains. Yes they are employees of the host railroad and receive no salary from Amtrak.

Slots? What slots?

Since we're talking about contracts, it's time to ask again: Does the term slot (or for that matter window) appear in any contract between Amtrak and a host railroad? Lots of so-called railfans think they do--and that they allow the host to do with Amtrak what it will, with complete impunity, if it misses any such "slot" or "window." But I say that's a hunch spun into myth through repetition, a railfan urban legend.

Yes slots are planned they are not a figment of a railfans imagination, if they did not then why when would Amtrak have to tell the host railroad about changes it would like to make. Why then would an employee of Amtrak or the host railroad have to carry a timetable of all trains running on his or her section of railroad. I personally have to carry 3. Metro North, Amtrak and the MBCR. If you were to look at say the Metro North employee timetable you would notice a slot for each Amtrak train you get out of your slot you will follow the local no doubt about it.

Also there are things called Partners in Preformance or PIP for short were things like OTP and schedules are discused. That includes when trains will be or not be run. Slots are very important to how a schedule is laid out, do you think that they throw darts at train numbers and write them down and say will go with this.

Otto,

To get back to the LSL, passed 448 yesterday and it had 2 deadhead sleepers on it for Boston. It looks as though the rumors are true, sleeping car service will be restored out of Bos maybe as early as this week.

Railjunkie wrote:I personally have to carry 3.

In what capacity? If one is going to claim special expertise, let's have the credentials.

The timetable tells everyone what time the train is supposed to pass a given point. Railfans eager to find justification for poor Amtrak treatment (take that, Mister Amtrak!) have spun this into a concept they call a "slot." Miss it, and the host supposedly has the contractual right to give you the business, all it wants, with impunity.

Here's the problem: How wide this so-called slot is, or where this clause is, no one seems to know. Ask for specifics, you get only insults. That's why I say the whole notion of "slots" is pure mean-spirited railfantasy. Or to put this in a junkie metaphor, railcrack.

mattfels wrote:

Railjunkie wrote:I personally have to carry 3.

In what capacity? If one is going to claim special expertise, let's have the credentials.

The timetable tells everyone what time the train is supposed to pass a given point. Railfans eager to find justification for poor Amtrak treatment (take that, Mister Amtrak!) have spun this into a concept they call a "slot." Miss it, and the host supposedly has the contractual right to give you the business, all it wants, with impunity.

Here's the problem: How wide this so-called slot is, or where this clause is, no one seems to know. Ask for specifics, you get only insults. That's why I say the whole notion of "slots" is pure mean-spirited railfantasy. Or to put this in a junkie metaphor, railcrack.

What kind of crack are you on, Fels?

The guy obviously is a professional railroader who is being courteous enough to try to explain how things work in the real world and you hurl insults at him. Kindly take your head out of your backside and get into the real world instead of your fantasy land where passenger trains rule the roost, there is unlimited capital available for any "can do" person willing to fix the system and NIMBYs can be bowled over. Rants like yours show your ignorance of rail operations, the capital markets and politics. If "slots" were BS, as you suggest, wouldn't other people on this board have called it. too?

We all have the right to express our opinions here and to disagree with one another, but lets have the dignity to do it with respect for others and ourselves. You simply don't know when to quit. You're like the knight in the Monty Python movie who keeps fighting after his arms and legs have been cut off.

First I would like to thank LI Loco for defending me in my attempt to explain the idea of slots to Mr fels. Second Im not only a rail fan but also an professional railroader.

Mr fels wants credentials well here you go
Qualified conductor 4years( and yes Mr fels that includes trains going to NYP over MN territory.) that includes over 600 miles of territory including parts of Canada, now in engine service. Have attended PIP meetings and Im held to a books of rules you could not understand on your best day. I must attend yearly rules classes which if I dont pass I dont work Im held responible for anything that goes wrong with my train, If I miss read a signal or miss read a special Instruction Im up a creek with out a paddle and that means no pay for atleast 30 days. What happens to you if you screw up Mr fels? A slap on the wrist maybe a scolding from the boss.

In reference to your wise --- crack about crack can't use it violates Rule G.

Slots do exsist just pulled out my current MN employee time table which is different than a public because it lists everything that runs between GCT and POU, your answer is 8 to 10 min depending on the time of day. As I said before you miss your slot and you will follow a local or deadhead equipment sure as the sun sets in the west.

Please choose your battles carefully Mr fels if I cant answer the question Ill be more than happy to find someone who can, I do not like having my intellegence insulted I take my job very seriously. I run trains for a living and try get over the road as safely as possible, and enjoy evey minute of it.

That's all I asked for: credentials and one definition (Metro-North's) of "slot." Much appreciated--that's a good start. As for the rest of it, perhaps someone else can find the clause in the contract that supposedly takes a host completely off the hook if an Amtrak train misses so much as one slot. What does the contract say?

Perhaps Mr. Fels needs to have his cynicism regulator adjusted....

Don't confuse skepticism with cynicism. I say it's reasonable to ask for credentials from people who post anonymously under silly pseudonyms and then suddenly claim to be experts of some kind.

I think we could have a much higher level of discourse if we follow the American tradition of jurisprudence, i.e. innocent until proven guilty.

In other words, if you question the validity of information or opinions someone has posted, it's up to you to present the counter argument, rather than insisting that the person restate his views over and over again until you are willing to accept them.

LI Loco wrote:I think we could have a much higher level of discourse if we follow the American tradition of jurisprudence, i.e. innocent until proven guilty.

In other words, if you question the validity of information or opinions someone has posted, it's up to you to present the counter argument, rather than insisting that the person restate his views over and over again until you are willing to accept them.

Or at the very least, do not go on the invalid assumption that the only individuals who post on this forum are what you portray to be stereotypical railfans/foamers/rail wannabes.....whatever.

In the case of a self-proclaimed expert, simply presume that the anonymous poster is innocent of expertise. Until proven otherwise. A real expert is glad to give credentials, right up front.

Don't want to have to prove expertise? Don't claim it. Simply rely on general, publicly available infomation when posting. The big advantage of posting this way is that you never have to reveal anything about yourself. (Remember, anonymity matters to people who post under alias.) Instead you can simply say, "Here's the link--see for yourself." We're talking res ipsa loquitur ("the thing speaks for itself")--a powerful way, perhaps the most powerful, to make an argument. Certainly much more powerful than "take my (anonymous) word for it."

Besides, in the once-uttered-and-long-since-forgotten words of our president, you can't prove a negative. In this case, that means you can't prove

• that there isn't a miss-this-slot-and-God-help-you clause in host railroad contracts
• that a poster identified only by handle isn't an expert.

Not when certain pieces of information are withheld:

• the contract itself
• or the poster's real name

.

You know, it's quite possible that "slots" or "windows" are not in Amtrak's contracts with host railroads, but still exist.

If I were the operations manager of a host railroad, and I knew that Amtrak was scheduled for a certain time along a certain route, I would try not to schedule other traffic that would cause conflicts. If I could do this successfully, then voila - a slot! Then if Amtrak misses that slot, problems and delays are likely to arise. But this does not require the slot to be in the contract itself.

I'm just speculating here, as I am not in the railroad business. But I am in another operations-intensive business, construction, and I suspect there is a parallel. When we're a prime contractor, we may have a lot of subcontractors on whom the overall job schedule depends. But it would be rare to have a schedule actually spelled out in the subcontracts themselves. Instead, scheduling is just a task of operations management. I may have a "slot" when I need a certain sub to come work even though it's not spelled out in his contract. Or more like Amtrak, I may have a sub that can only come at a certain time, and I then have to schedule the rest of the work in a way that accomodates that.

A host railroad should behave in the same way. They know when Amtrak is scheduled to come through, and they just have to manage it properly. They may or may not have a "slot" for Amtrak, even if nothing about slots is in the contract. It's a management task to keep Amtrak on schedule, and a "slot" is just one way they might try to do it.

First off, I'd like to say I'm new to this forum and just joined to help explain "slots" if I can. I've been an engineer with Amtrak for over 12 years and have been a road foreman of engines.... Railjunkie is correct in what he is trying to explain.... While there is no such thing as a "slot" officially I can assure you that they do exist. Its a natural occurance, more prevalent on a busy rr. Take the B&A for example, at Worcester there is one track at the station. If you are late, you may not be able to use that track due to a comuter train arriving or departing... hence you are now out of slot. Because you are late, your going to wait. The dispatcher is not going to risk "loosing" another train just to get an already late train into the station.... the snowball effect begins. Framingham is the next bottleneck. Once you get through Framingham, CP 11 is trouble. All T trains run out and in on track 2 due to the station platforms. If you are out of slot your going to wait at CP 11. Get by there and you have single track between CP 4 and CP 3. Wait again if you've missed your window.

So you can see, its not a contractual issue... its simple operations. Trains are all scheduled around one another... in slots.

Hope this helps.

No, here's what 'railjunkie' wrote:Please note that when contracts are worked out between Amtrak and the host railroad generally a slot or slots will be made for the train(s)

Please note use of the word contracts. And note further that we now understand that the concept of a slot isn't in the contract.