Adirondack suspended starting 5/20/2024

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:48 pm ...hold on. Why does CN have trackage *in* the United States?

Same with an agency of the State of New Jersey owning trackage, two yards and one station in NY State.

R36 Combine Coach wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 8:19 pm

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 1:47 pm Sounds like a case for the State to purchase the route, and then contract out freight service, with CN maintaining trackage rights.

Can Quebec even own the line and lease out to a freight carrier as with NJDOT, ConnDOT, NYSDOT, et al?
Metrolinx (Ontario) owns GO Transit lines but has CN freight trackage rights.

Quebec can, but it will almost certainly choose not to, being more likely to repeat ad nauseam that such things are matters for the federal taxpayer to bear. We see a similar situation on Cascades in BC.

The difference with the Metrolinx example above is that Exo (formerly AMT, the local heavy rail commuter service) has no operations over the Rouses Point Subdivision, and therefore has no direct interest in acquiring it.

The alternative would be to route Adironadack (and Vermonter in the future) via the CPKC Lacolle Subdivision, but the CP track does not have a route to Central Station, instead terminating at Exo’s Lucien L’Allier. This would reduce the convenience factor for travellers wishing to connect onwards.

dowlingm wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 5:54 pm The alternative would be to route Adironadack (and Vermonter in the future) via the CPKC Lacolle Subdivision, but the CP track does not have a route to Central Station, instead terminating at Exo’s Lucien L’Allier. This would reduce the convenience factor for travellers wishing to connect onwards.

Mr. Dowling, in an effort to reconcile my earlier posting with your captioned quote, the Napier Junction Railway, NJ, which I think was the D&H's Canadian subsidiary is now the CPKC LaColle Sub and only runs into what was Windsor Station?

Found off Reddit but posted via the ESPA's Facebook page.

Amtrak can request that Congress authorize spending money on fixed infrastructure in Canada, so technically, the CN line in Quebec could be bought by Amtrak. Any state can purchase property wherever that state chooses (unless a state's Constitution prohibits it). Amtrak can't ask the STB or FRA to inspect CN tracks outside the USA--those agencies jurisdiction is in the USA.

All that said, Amtrak could take CN before the Canada Transportation Agency, but it's not clear what that could do (https://www.transportaction.ca/topics/i ... on-agency/)

As CN owns the Rouses Point Sub and the only passenger trains that traverse such are AMT 68/69 as they have since 1977 I believe. Why would VIA, the FRA and STB be involved? One is very much like Amtrak the other two have no say in how a foreign country or business will do its business. Transport Canada could have got involved, but did not to the best of my knowledge. I know people who made a lot of phone calls to senators, congress critters and Transport Canada to help get this resolved. The money came from somewhere and I do not think it was CN. They really do not want us up there. The first 5 miles of the subdivision from the boarder to Cantic would be gone tomorrow if they could make it happen.

As for Winsor Station, the old routing for the D&H. This idea that was looked at years ago and while the idea is valid your missing a few things. The wye to turn trains is gone, some of the track to get there may be gone, there are no servicing facilities for the trains, facilities for passengers, and lastly the station itself has been converted into a commuter station. Been there walked the open air platforms on a nice snowy -10 degree evening. Unless something has changed the station itself was not open. Gare Central is far better suited for passenger service.

ESPA has it sorta right the 10mph didn't exist in the winter only summer due to heat just like every other railroad. CN's is way more restrictive.

I think RandallW was suggesting that a little pressure on CN south of the border might produce more cooperation north of it. There's an old maxim among railroads: You [mess with] me here, I'll [mess with] you there, and it's worked well through the years.

While they're at it they might look into why CN track circuits are different from all other track circuits.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:48 pm Amtrak would have to form an "Amtrak Canada" or get with VIA Rail to purchase the line, to be honest. This is "North of the border" so CN would...

...hold on. Why does CN have trackage *in* the United States?

No, I think Amtrak can just hit up the STB and FRA on this and ask for an investigation for ALL of CN's tracks.

No CN does not own in US. IC RR or Grand trunk does both which are fully registered and dispatched as US RRs. They are CN subsidiarys.

Does that mean Soo Line, D&H and KCS are legally separate subsidiaries of CPR (CPKC) as well?

Yes it does Mr. R36.

Owing to a treaty with Canada signed during the 19th century, if you are to do business as a railroad here in the US, you will have a US corporation through which to do it. Examples of course are the Soo Line and the Grand Trunk Western.

Now what I do not know is to what extent that treaty is reciprocal; while I've heard of the Napierville Junction (D&H in Canada) and the Spokane International (UP), I've never learned the name of a subsidiary through which the BNSF (predecessor GN) does business in Canada. All I know is that "they're there".

Calling Mr. Meyer.

There were lots of cross-border intrusions by US and Canadian railways that didn't have separate corporate ownership. The tangled bits of Canadian National and Central Vermont ownership in the area south of Montreal make up a very intricate story. A short piece of the Adirondack's route in St. Lambert was built for the CV before Grand Trunk acquired some but not all of CV's lines in Quebec. CP's line in Maine were incorporated as the International of Maine. Ownership of CP's lines in Vermont is sketchier, though US-built diesel locomotives were assigned locally in Vermont.

BNSF/GN's line to Vancouver doesn't seem to have a Canadian owner as such. GN and CN swapped trackage rights in the New Westminster area, giving GN access to CN's downtown station.

GN's line to Winnipeg was incorporated as the Manitoba Great Northern Railway, later the Midland Railway of Manitoba, shared ownership with CN, trackage rights by NP. Still owned by BNSF as BNSF (Manitoba) Ltd. CN's Minnesota and Manitoba crosses into the US south of Lake of the Woods on the CN line west from Thunder Bay.

John_Perkowski wrote:Someone please tell me Amtrak’s contracts now include a penalty clause for less than a state of good repair. See also 3/4 and western Kansas.

Contracts imply both parties have a say in the matter, which hasn't been the case for 53 years of what's become a government taking without just compensation.....

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Thank you for stepping up, Mr/Monsieur Alouette.

I was never aware that the Central Vermont had physical track within Canada. I always held that CV ended at where the frontier was (E. Alberg?).

Seemed like CN and CV were joined at the hip; imagine a 15yo kid being sent to camp in Kapitachuan Club PQ during '56 and seeing all that smoke out the window of a CN "Green---" Sleeper on the Montrealer. Good grief, there's a steam engine, which growing up along the NH in Cos Cob and Riverside "didn't see too many of" (once; a wire train. You think my Mother would be about to slow down so I could have a better look?).

west point wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 11:51 pm

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:48 pm Amtrak would have to form an "Amtrak Canada" or get with VIA Rail to purchase the line, to be honest. This is "North of the border" so CN would...

...hold on. Why does CN have trackage *in* the United States?

No, I think Amtrak can just hit up the STB and FRA on this and ask for an investigation for ALL of CN's tracks.

No CN does not own in US. IC RR or Grand trunk does both which are fully registered and dispatched as US RRs. They are CN subsidiarys.

Funny, CN lists the track as "fully CN" not "partially CN but has trackage rights", and that's on CN's website. Not Canadian Pacific Kansas City. Canadian National Railways. CN.

But Excon and RandalW have picked up on what I'm implying -- CN has holdings south of the border. Maybe the relevant US agencies should be checking on their track as well.

So essentially you guys are saying Government agencies should go ahead and abuse the powers they have to fix things in areas they don't have authority or influence?

I thought quid pro quo was illegal when the government or an elected official does it....

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