The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

From my official track charts for the Atlantic Branch there is a 4.1% grade between mileposts 4 and 5 uphill (westbound) to the East New York station. Looks to be a bit more than a quarter mile or so.
They used to run freight with DD2 motors into the meat packing industry there. Evidently no problem there with that grade.

As an aside I observed a new entrance has been build to the Vanderbilt yard at the east end of the Flatbush Terminal switch ladder
This shows during the new cab ride video:
4K/60p: LIRR M3 Front Window Atlantic Terminal to Far Rockaway rhat was recently posted
on You Tube.

Link to the video >>>===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHv9iiPxKfQ

Vince Cockeram
Continuing with the LIRR Build.
Currently at Albertson

Special Instruction GCB 1038-I lists the restricted equipment.

E-10 Locomotives
E-15 Locomotives
E-20 Locomotives (GP-38)
DE/DM Locomotives
M3 Cars

Workextra, I agree with you about the grades. How about the approaches to the Atlantic Ave. viaduct in Brooklyn. Those grades are fairly steep though I wouldn't know what percent they are. But if the M3's can climb them...........

HEV, Those grades you mentioned are likely 1.6% or less but absolutely nothing near what ESA is.
The steepest grade prior to ESA was between the viaduct to the top of the hill east of Great Neck. (Where they replaced the roadway bridge. That grade was 2.5% .3% steeper than the east river tunnel grades which reach 2.2%

The M3s will likely have no issue making the grades. They’re way lighter than the M7/9 the concern may also include the braking ability to hold the train on those grades. Min brake will not hold the train, you need to be in max brake or you will roll back.

The previous poster stated the class restrictions to what appears to be right out of the book.

The official reason the M3s are restricted is not because of clearance and power as many of us been lied to about over the years.
It’s because LIRR wisely chose note to waste the money to install the ESA cab signals system on the M3.
had they went with the PRR style cab signals like the remainder of the system, then the M3 would be permitted in there.

When Grand Central Madison opens, will Hunterspoint Avenue and Long Island City lose all service? Thanks.

The latest I'm hearing is that the 12/5 date that was discussed (for Grand Central), but never officially announced, is not going to happen. I'm hearing of a 2 week extension, so 12/19 might be the date. Again, nothing is confirmed.


We should be notified at least 2 weeks prior to the start of service, to allow for train crews to place trims (displace a crew member of lower seniority off of their assignment) if needed.

The official reason the M3s are restricted is not because of clearance and power as many of us been lied to about over the years.

I've seen many M3's gap in Queens while crossing over, because of the 3rd rail gaps. Are there gaps in 3rd rail going uphill in the new tunnels?

bellstbarn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:13 pm When Grand Central Madison opens, will Hunterspoint Avenue and Long Island City lose all service? Thanks.

No, actually adding back some service to HPA/LIC that was cut with the covid cuts.

Now with the GOP not winning the governor's office, might also no longer be a need to open by the end of 2022.

In the video of the Atlantic Ave. branch that Vince supplied the link to, check out 4:54 - the provision for a possible connection to the Franklin and Brighton lines of the NYC Subway; 14:53 - the former connection to the Rockaway Beach branch; 15:00 - the former Woodhaven station.

workextra wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:40 pm The official reason the M3s are restricted is not because of clearance and power as many of us been lied to about over the years.
It’s because LIRR wisely chose note to waste the money to install the ESA cab signals system on the M3.
had they went with the PRR style cab signals like the remainder of the system, then the M3 would be permitted in there.

Can you explain please what the difference is between those two systems, and why would LIRR use that system if harold also using PRR cab/(modern) wayside signals?

Long story short, a consultant sold
The MTA something and no one from
LIRR operations was in the room that possessed the knowledge to dispute the consultants claims until it was too late.
This project wasn’t done in-house by LIRR it was done by MTA.
The difference is the hearts at which the 2 cab Signal systems operate at. This one is a 2## hertz and the PRR is a 1## hertz I don’t know the exact figures off the top of my head.
This is what I was told by people more conversant with ESA.
There are a lot of lessons to be learned from this debacle. But history will repeat is self because we as humans tend to be unwilling to learn from the past.

Fact is. The state wasted billions of valuable dollars to use the 63st tunnel, when If they were boring a tunnel with TBMs to begin with, they could have and for much less, bored a new more shallow tube under the tunnel north of the 63rd st tunnel reducing the curvature and depth, and tying into the MN lower level. by the time this was dug we got dual style 3rd rail shoes now, issue solved.
However money was well spent on making the m7 and m9 compatible with the 2 systems so you can transition between the 2 without issue.

There are a lot of other complications both operational and non operational to my knowledge, however I’m not getting into that here as I’m not in sphere of accurate information and would rather not spew inaccurate information.

Thank you Workextra. We appreciate your candid explanation of the signal system issues.

Interesting info. Where would have the LIRR have tied into the MNRR lower level?

workextra wrote: ↑Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:25 pm Long story short, a consultant sold
The MTA something and no one from
LIRR operations was in the room that possessed the knowledge to dispute the consultants claims until it was too late.
This project wasn’t done in-house by LIRR it was done by MTA.
The difference is the hearts at which the 2 cab Signal systems operate at. This one is a 2## hertz and the PRR is a 1## hertz I don’t know the exact figures off the top of my head.
This is what I was told by people more conversant with ESA.
There are a lot of lessons to be learned from this debacle. But history will repeat is self because we as humans tend to be unwilling to learn from the past.

Fact is. The state wasted billions of valuable dollars to use the 63st tunnel, when If they were boring a tunnel with TBMs to begin with, they could have and for much less, bored a new more shallow tube under the tunnel north of the 63rd st tunnel reducing the curvature and depth, and tying into the MN lower level. by the time this was dug we got dual style 3rd rail shoes now, issue solved.
However money was well spent on making the m7 and m9 compatible with the 2 systems so you can transition between the 2 without issue.

There are a lot of other complications both operational and non operational to my knowledge, however I’m not getting into that here as I’m not in sphere of accurate information and would rather not spew inaccurate information.

There was apparently a plan to tie in somewhere to the North Eastern side of the lower level.
The specific details I would have love to see. But this was indeed discussed.
This project is over 50 years in the making and it changed like the weather.
The formal reason why I was told we didn’t tap into the current MN lower level was because MN didn’t need all that capacity and LIRR could take some tracks. But again, I’m Sharing what I was told by someone closer to the project not my personal opinion.

What’s done is done, we’ll deal with it.
I hope the public is happy with what they paid for.
Let’s see how clean they keep it

Still curious about the Protect situation and tunnel work; especially if all 3 diesel classes are banned. It'll be really boring if it's shuttlemotors.

Workextra. Thankyou for your explanation. Its much appreciated

What will be the rescue engine then?