Acela II (Alstom Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Matt Johnson wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:29 am I would argue that to sell a rail service as high speed, you have to at least solidly beat interstate driving time between endpoints. And based on that, yes, the NY to Boston portion of the NEC is marginal at best.

Well they actually did try to build a bypass to speed things up but the NIMBYs killed that idea. I will add that I felt the New London to Kenyon, RI eastern half seemed more doable (lots of protest about an elevated structure through Old Lyme) and probably could run mostly in the median on Route 95 and eliminate most of the curviest section and the drawbridges. They just gave up on the whole idea.

But you got to include the fact that no one wants to drive a car into New York City or even Boston for that matter. What do you do with the car when you are there? Also both cities have good public transportation that can take you probably where you want to go.

That bypass didn't even pass the sniff check. Local concerns aside, I-95 is simply not suitable for HSR. It's too curvy and too hilly; you simply wouldn't see anything approaching actual HSR on the corridor. (Their "New London/Mystic" station located on a 3% grade next to a swamp in a wholly undevelopable area tells me exactly how much effort they put in.)

True HSR NYC-Boston is doable, but simply not via the shoreline. BOS-PVD and BOS-WOR are both fairly straight and level; NHV-HFD just needs the grade crossing clusters nixed. Then you pick your poison across the intermediate: use the old I-384 alignment across Eastern CT (combine that with the long-locally-desired upgrade of dangerous US 6), and the old Washington Secondary across RI. Or built HSR along I-84, which would require bridges/tunnels but has few curves and fewer locals to object, then the straight section of the Pike to join up with the existing line at Auburn. Either one of those is vastly more doable and vastly faster than any shoreline bypass, and hits Hartford to boot.

Matt Johnson wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:29 am Acela actually spends a good portion of its run (on the DC - NY portion at least) at triple digit speeds. That's what enables the non-stop runs to average 90 or so (and even the regular stop Acelas to average above 80 mph).

Your first statement may be correct, I'm not sure, but wouldn't we rather have a 125mph train that works really well and markets well to riders rather than a 160mph train that barely tops 125? The over-125 requirements are quite stiff. You could also probably drop tilt.

If the new set were sub-125 only, you could:
1. probably buy 2-3 more trains with the reduced compliance and technology costs of staying below 125
2. probably replace all the trains, NE Regional and Acela, if the new trainset was 125mph only
3. stagger production into a longer-term pattern whereby there is no clear wave of "old trains" and "new trains" like we have now.

#3 is really interesting because it keeps a smaller production line running continually and balances the demands for overhaul and repair on the shops as well.

Matt Johnson wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:29 am I would argue that to sell a rail service as high speed, you have to at least solidly beat interstate driving time between endpoints. And based on that, yes, the NY to Boston portion of the NEC is marginal at best.

I think the important thing here is to sell a rail service, period. If riders pay, it works, regardless of speed. Now speed is a useful marketing tactic, but it's not the only one. Most important to me, as a business traveler - Is it reliable? Is it drive competitive, including erratic traffic? Can I get work done aboard and have a coffee? Those are more important than a nominal speed number.

Tadman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:28 am You could also probably drop tilt.

No way. That makes a big difference especially on the NYP - BOS route. I participated in the high-speed rail tests in the 80s on the Northeast Corridor and there was a substantial difference between tilting and non-tilting equipment in passenger comfort. You can run Amfleet pretty hard but it won't be a pleasant ride.

The Shore Line wasn't meant for high speed rail. Even though more straight than the New Haven Main Line between New Haven and New Rochelle, there are still many spots along the right of way where it is curvy and indirect. Between New Haven and Branford, the right of way heads northeast for a few miles and then where I-91 goes over the Shore Line twice, the right of way is at its northernmost peak and then it heads south again just east of the Quinnipiac River for a few miles through some tunnels before heading underneath I-95 in East Haven and taking a curve. It's relatively straight in many spots from Branford to the Connecticut River Drawbridge west limits. In the Lymes, there are many curves. In New London, given the amount of curves there, the right of way is far from high speed standards. Plus, many train stops in New London-this is an important stop for Northeast Regional Trains. In the Mystic area, there are many curves and the Mystic Station is on a very sharp curve-very tough to build high level platforms here but it's not more of a tourism spot. The Acelas typically don't cater much to people traveling for tourism purposes, unless if there happens to be an Acela train in a time slot when there isn't a Northeast Regional for a long time when these people may be heading to cities.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:24 am While we've been talking in the $2,000,000,000 thread about VA as well (and there's actually a good VA thread somewhere in the MARC/VRE forum too), I find two of my best and thoughtful posters raising very good points. So I ask:

Will there be enough Avelia sets (28, right?) to run extended service into VA? Such an extension doesn't have to be an all at once project; it can certainly be done in phases, and an obvious first goal is F'Burg. Adding catenary at the same time as track while designing and engineering the more difficult remainder to Richmond is a good starting point. I think the service would be a bit more limited south of DC, just as it is east of NY; certainly not the same frequency.

Even if someone decided to forego all logic and erect catenary, 28 sets would not be enough unless they change the intended plan...which is possible since a new leadership team is shortly taking the helm. Even so, there isn't much of a reason to do this as I will point out below.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:24 am
As for NYS, I"m kinda surprised Cuomo, who likes big visibility/big ticket items, with the A-II actually being built in his own state, has not explored Empire service as a destination. Could they throw on a non-electric option? No, it won't go 160. But it would be a heckuva lot better than the crap they run, and a redemption for the train whose name shall not be spoken (cough, Matt, cough LOL). But the line has huge complications, not the least of which is MNRR ownership south of Poughkeepsie, and DC electrification below Croton Harmon.

Tadman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:30 am There's a lot to this idea. It's not the high speed that sells Acela. It's the fact it's competitive with air, and positioned as a premium service. Part of that positioning is the price and amenities and clientele, and a bit is the halo of high speed. But we all know it's not really high speed. That train spends far more time below 89 than above 100.

I have always maintained that a fast-looking, reliable, premium product would sell very well in other dense corridors. It doesn't need to actually go fast. Whether it's Avelia/Acela 2 or something else that looks fast and modern with premium-positioned service, you could probably do well in corridors like Albany, Richmond, or San Diego. Mabye some day the Texas triangle.

I'm curious as to why Gov. Cuomo would want to explore a cost inducing option like sending an Acela to his territory, particularly when the options discussed in the Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion are forthcoming.

Specifically: AMTRAK SEEKS NEW PASSENGER EQUIPMENT FOR NORTHEAST REGIONAL AND STATE CORRIDOR SERVICE

Whatever is decided upon will benefit the states as well. This could be a dmu/emu combination. It can be a semi-permanently attached set with power on each end. It can be locomotive-hauled coaches with an additional order tacked on to the Chargers. This will allow for a set of equipment to have a Charger on one end and a Cities Sprinter on the other end, eliminating an engine change.

With this kind of purchase on the horizon, there is no need to involve a specialized, high-speed set into the mix. Even if it takes time to produce the equipment, you can use the existing fleet to bolster additional service until it runs out of life.

I can partly answer why Cuomo might do it:
DMU/EMUs, not matter how nice, will never look as sleek as an Avelia... and if you're running for President, you want to point to cool looking stuff.

In addition, there's a few spots where you can already run at 110mph and has been tested at least once at 125mph. With some work and I think one, possibly two grade crossings, you can get that up to 135 mph, possibly more and claim you brought HSR to New York!

Finally, it would be nice (this more to do with catenary than actual Avelia) to be able to do some run-through trains from ALB to NYP and then on to Boston, or if they include Long Island (what happened to that idea btw?) or even by reversing, to WAS.

Is it super necessary? Nah. Super practical? Only if you have 30+ trainsets, not 28.

Overall though, I think Amtrak could benefit from an expanded fleet AND range of Avelias from a marketing point of view. Showing a map that included Boston, Albany, NYC, Harrisburg, Washington and points south as home to "Acela II" looks more impressive and has merit from a marketing POV.

Technically, agreed, little merit, but sometimes I think one needs to look beyond that.

Fast train of any sort on Long Island? From my point in East Northport to Penn, average speed is under 30 mph. Even without the Jamaica hellhole, all the constant switch and signal breakdowns, the worn out locos, etc., the fastest in diesel country I've ever witnessed was about 40 miles in about 45 minutes. In electric country maybe 35 miles in 60 minutes. While we'd love direct connections to Amtrak out here, LIRR can't handle what little it has already. The 3rd track will help a little bit and make LIRR a bit less unreliable.

Greg Moore wrote: ↑Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:43 pm I can partly answer why Cuomo might do it:
DMU/EMUs, not matter how nice, will never look as sleek as an Avelia... and if you're running for President, you want to point to cool looking stuff.

This is a big misconception! EMU can indeed look fast, as this is an EMU.


This is a DMU


And this is an EMU airport shuttle.


Builders can put a fiberglass streamlined nose cone on anything and make it look fast.

Which goes back to my well-worn theory: Make it look sleek and modern, make it reliable, add good wifi and alcohol, and people will ride. Doesn't have to go 125, just fast enough to create value by riding over driving.

NYSDOT is always welcome to order the tilting Alstom trainsets that make up the Acela II, but with dual-mode diesels on the ends. Definitely would be a great PR move, also good for keeping in-state jobs and employers happy.

Tad: The UK Virgin Trains picture you posted above is of a Class 390 Pendolino EMU
in West Coast Main Line service:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_390
An interesting spotting feature of the Class 390 Pendolino is the single pantograph
being used in service is placed on a trailer coach towards the rear of the train set.
The UK WCML overhead catenary traction power supply is 25 KV AC.

You were probably thinking of the UK Class 220 and/or 221 Voyager DMU in
Virgin Trains service:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_220
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_221

Since December 2019 Avanti West Coast has taken over the West Coast Main Line
trains once operated by Virgin Trains...MACTRAXX

Yeah you're right. I rode aboard a 220/221 named "Christopher Columbus" last summer. It wasn't bad. I was expecting and hoping for a dual mode but got a straight diesel. Crewe-London Euston. On that note, Crewe Museum was free and very interesting, and the junk shop was amazing. I could've taken an entire shipping container of stuff home. Fifteen minute walk north of the station.

Avelia tilting coach sets with diesel power would potentially make an attractive replacement for the now out of favor Talgos, provided of course they could be made low level compatible.

Matt Johnson wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:42 pm Avelia tilting coach sets with diesel power would potentially make an attractive replacement for the now out of favor Talgos, provided of course they could be made low level compatible.

I’ve been having a hard time ascertaining whether Alstom offers low boarding, but the below assembly-line picture of an Avelia Pendolino seems to imply a step-down vestibule. Up to Alstom whether they’d consider offering a diesel-sandwiched Pendolino over here, with the attendant design changes, but it would have value for New York, Virginia, Washington and Oregon, and possibly Minnesota.

Looks like Amtrak had to conduct focus groups to realize that people don't want to ride backwards or have no place to sit in the cafe. Wow, who could have figured that out?

Potential Challenges
(may need talking points)
• Sharing pull down sunshades
• One restroom vs two per car
• Lack of seating in café car
• Flow of traffic at point of sale
• 50/50 seating

http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents ... 281%29.pdf