No more charter trains

Guess what train is the most profitable (on a per-rider basis)? Acela? AutoTrain? nope.... NonNEC Special Trains!

see p. 104 of https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/proj ... 5Yr-FP.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

in FY17 Non NEC Special Trains transported 21,667 riders. Revenues: $6.0M Expenses $3.6M plus $0.2M in Capital Project Allocation. This yields a $112.08 PROFIT per rider.

Interestingly, NEC special trains lost money. Not clear why that would be.

Yes, Amtrak excursions like the Autumn Express which covered rare freight only mileage on part of the routes were popular. Some trains sold out in minutes after tickets went on sale.

If the special train runs on track not owned by Amtrak, it is not a capital expense at all for Amtrak unless they provide equipment. If the route doesn't have Amtrak service, then it shouldn't delay any of Amtrak's regular passengers.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:

Backshophoss wrote:This is the legal Dept and the Insurance carrier saying it's NO longer worth the risk to operate Charter services for ANY reason.
The Caycee wreck on CSX,and the charter run wreck to Greenbrier resort as the reasons to do this.

I wholly agree with Mr. Backshop.

At present, the underwriters look at Amtrak as a bad risk, and who knows to what extent the premiums Amtrak pays have been adversely affected by the apparent "breakdown" of any safety culture on the property. They also see in the case of the excursions, non-employees who may or may not be properly trained to ensure safety of passengers for which Amtrak is ultimately liable. They further see equipment maintained by outside parties that may or may not have been properly inspected before acceptance by Amtrak to handle.

I'll accept the statements here that operating excursion and handling "PV's" puts more in the cookie jar than they take out of it. But have any kind of an incident and that cookie jar won't have too many crumbs left.

I cannot say if this was the "right call", but it is the call that can be and has been made by Amtrak management.

Live with it.

This is probably in line with the "No matter what the rail line, if Amtrak's involved, Amtrak is liable" law. The lawyers are looking at it and saying "This gets fixed or we can't run ANYTHING!"

I have said this before but it bears repeating at this point. With regard to steam trains, I like them, we all like them but if I were a railroad executive I would be very concerned about the LIABILITY of people all over the place on our tracks and property taking all sorts of unnecessary chances just to get that shot. Not just adults but un-attended kids are a big problem just trying to see how close they can get to see or photo the action. Just look at some of the videos of 611 trips to see prime examples of my point here. Police - no railroad has a large enough police force to control or put a stop to this stuff and the people doing it don't care about their own safety. Lawyers are just waiting in the wings to take on a case of this nature and hit the railroad or Amtrak or whoever is the operator of this trip. Who needs it? There are some really beautiful steam engines around that could run if they could find a place to run but for the most part most managements want no part of the risks involved in allowing such an event to occur on their property. I can't say that I blame them either.
Noel Weaver

JimBoylan wrote:

ryanov wrote:I can’t see how the Autumn Express could be losing money.

Amtrak's fares and other revenues don't bring in enough extra money to cover the capital costs of replacing equipment, track, etc. Unless the individual special train covers the entire cost of that replacement, as well as its direct costs and overhead, the wear and tear it causes advance the evil day when money must be found for replacements. The same argument was one of the reasons used for getting out of the carload express business, it didn't pay for all of the money that would eventually be needed to replace the necessary switching locomotives, which were already elderly and idle before it started.

Not exactly the same thing though -- we're talking two trains that use regular revenue equipment. It doesn't change the amount of equipment Amtrak needs to own at all.

The Donald uses a similar argument about Amazon using the United States Postal Service as its "delivery boy". Since the Post Office looses money on everything it moves, any additional package it handles is more tax money that has to be diverted from building The Wall.

I'm fairly certain the postal service does not lose money on delivering packages, so that one doesn't really work either.

I can see Noel's argument about charter trains drawing photographers that might trespass, though I didn't see any of that on the Autumn Express (just people at the side of the tracks photographing).

I don't know if this has been asked, but does this decision affect class 1 railroad business cars being handled by Amtrak? I remember President Tom Rice getting on his business car that was added to the back of the Silver Meteor in Charleston, SC.

I guess it is the insurance companies in light of the crashes seeing excursions on Amtrak as a risk now. It probably means that cities without Amtrak service like Asheville, NC and Allentown, PA which had NS and Amtrak excursions a few years ago will no longer have any public excursions to, from, or through them. The tracks will now be off limits to the public for a long time. We have to support railroads that are excursion friendly like Reading and Northern and TVRM, etc. I can see where this is going, the ones who chartered Amtrak trains will now charter buses.

ryanov wrote:we're talking two trains that use regular revenue equipment. It doesn't change the amount of equipment Amtrak needs to own at all.

They advanced by about 600 car miles the time when those 12 cars may have to be replaced.

ryanov wrote:I'm fairly certain the postal service does not lose money on delivering packages, so that one doesn't really work either.

The Donald says they lose, but the Associated Press has the opposite opinion, citing "federal regulators".

The eastbound Lake Shore lingers an hour in Albany, no matter how late it is. I hope it won't be delayed further by a deluge of private-car business no longer accepted elsewhere.

Admin note:

Please stay on the topic of the end of charter movements and PV movements

From a strictly railfan point of view this is too bad, but it was just about inevitable. Last year I rode a 611 trip, and I asked myself how long could this continue with steam on a mainline and literally hundreds of persons milling about near and on the right-of-way. Also Amtrak today must have very tight and limited equipment utilization. Even scheduling and assembling the equipment for a special trip must be a major task. Therefore it is understandable today that Amtrak and freight rrs just do not want to have anything to do with special trips. Many years ago rrs had the equipment and interesting routes for fantrips, and there was co-operating management. That is all gone forever. We have to be satisfied with our memories and photos of fantrips from years past. And ride the tourist lines!

More on the man abolishing Charters, etc. from Forbes Magazine:

" Indeed, Anderson’s willingness to ruffle feathers in what historically has been a clubby industry, at least at the highest levels of management, has become one the hallmarks of Delta, which prior to his arrival was considered the airline least likely to rock any industry boats. While Anderson can put his well-practiced, big, friendly Texan public persona on display when he needs to, his approach to managing and leading actually is quieter, more studious, and no-nonsense. "

IMO, this is the opening salvo that may eventually include discontinuing LD's, or severely curtailing their operations similar to president Jimmy Carter's edict of 1979-1980, when the Texas Chief (?), The Floridian, and other LD's were eliminated.

Now, we can collectively go to the corner and continue to lament and hand wring the passing of this service, or we can recognize Amtrak is not a private corporation and we as the taxpaying public have the right to know why this apparently profitable service was summarily cut. Chairman Anderson has some explaining to do before the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee in Congress. But only if you make your voices heard to elected officials and to the Committee members will that occur. See my previous post on who to contact.

Perhaps this is less about money than it is about distractions.

Consider this: What business is Amtrak in?

1. For-profit corridor transport
2. State-supported corridor transport
3. Long distance railroad transport
4. Commuter trains for cities
5. LTL package transport
6. Rolling stock design, procurement, and IP ownership
7. Real estate
8. Food service
9. Special stuff - PV's, Fall Excursion, Steam

Perhaps this is less about money than it is about a cultural focus on the core business toward the top of that list. My biggest gripes with those services are focus-related issues. Service is not consistent. Procedure is horribly inconsistent. Training is even worse as we saw in the recent Cascades accident. Maintenance is erratic with HVAC problems and intense noise and rattles in first class accommodations.

Given that non-NEC special moves were shown to be massively profitable (but small in nominal dollars), I think this isn't so much about money as it is distractions. Anderson is sending the right message, the message that the core business must run like a safe and well-oiled machine before they're going to consider running specials and steamers. If this is the case, it is a big step in the right direction.