Lynchburg VA NE Regional (ext. to Roanoke and Bristol)

It is so lit train service bout to start!

I have not been following this thread until today. My question is why just Roanoke and Bristol? This route should be extended to New Orleans via Knoxville, Chattanooga, Birmingham, Montgomery and Mobile.
Just my $0.02.

R&DB wrote:I have not been following this thread until today. My question is why just Roanoke and Bristol? This route should be extended to New Orleans via Knoxville, Chattanooga, Birmingham, Montgomery and Mobile.
Just my $0.02.

Those extensions would be paid for by the respective states which to date have never made any such offer.

This is a route funded by the State of Virginia. It is not part of Amtrak's national system and consequently any additional mileage has to be paid for through state sponsorship.

Also, we've talked a bit about how slow that route is - not that it doesn't deserve service, but that makes it tougher to sell.

R&DB wrote:I have not been following this thread until today. My question is why just Roanoke and Bristol? This route should be extended to New Orleans via Knoxville, Chattanooga, Birmingham, Montgomery and Mobile.
Just my $0.02.

As stated the route is slow. Here is a 1941 Birmingham special schedule. Once diesel in the 1940 about 1 = 1/2 hours shorter that's all

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R&DB wrote: ... why just Roanoke and Bristol? This route should be extended to New Orleans via Knoxville, Chattanooga, Birmingham, Montgomery and Mobile.

Short answer: no money, no equipment.

But of course this route should happen. However, only Virginia has a good track record for getting new or revived service in place. That doesn't mean, "Never gonna happen, abandon hope". It means it will be done step by step over some years, so be very patient.

First step was the Lynchburger, with NS putting a second Amtrak train on its main route with the Crescent. Successful beyond imagination.

Second step is the Roanoker, another 50+ miles in the direction we want to go. If this extension is successful ...

Third step would be extending the Roanoker, another 50+ miles to the New River Valley cluster of college towns, Blacksburg, Christiansburg, and Radford. If the Roanoker does tolerably well, we could see the New River Valley connected soonish (that is, in 5 or 10 years)

The next step to Bristol, roughly 110+ miles, would be far harder. If there'd be a stop in there, it would be for political reasons, to "serve" the almost empty counties of far SW Virginia. They no doubt feel like the state, indeed the whole world, has passed them by.

But the next stop to generate passengers would be Bristol itself, and its partners in the Tri-Cities area: Kingsport and Johnson City, with a dispersed but combined population of more than 500,000.

Others have noted the slow track thru the mountains between Roanoke and Knoxville. Slow times and bad connections would depress daylight ridership. But the Birmingham Special scheduled the overnight for this segment, so it didn't matter very much.

Beyond Bristol the next stops are Knoxville and Chattanooga. With combined population well over a million, those cities could probably support a corridor with several frequencies. That kind of heavy use would likely be needed to get any funding for the route in Tennessee. (But btw, our Bristol train passes the 750 milestone a little south of Knoxville, and by route length could qualify as an LD train in Amtrak's national system.)

When the route nears Chattanooga, it will feel a strong gravitational pull from the giant Atlanta Metro. Numerous consultants have made a living over the years studying possible routes thru the mountains. Besides those studies, other documents have been collected to prepare for a new Atlanta station. Nothing happening.

Without a new station in ATL and an upgraded route to get there, our Bristol train might as well head down to Birmingham, as you suggested. More work by consultants will help to decide the route. Chattanooga-Attalla (for Gadsden)-Birmingham is one possibility. Another might be Chattanooga-Decatur (for Huntsville)-Birmingham.

Coming from the other direction, the Southern Railroad Commission has proposed extending the City of New Orleans on to Mobile-Tallahassee-Jacksonville-Orlando. And to create a mini-corridor service, they've proposed a train with an overlapping route: New Orleans-Biloxi (Mississippi casino coast)-Mobile. Start small. Then perhaps after some success, extend via Montgomery to Birmingham, connecting there to the Crescent and the Bristol train coming from Chattanooga.

As for money, it will be found or not. And equipment will be found before such a train could pass thru Bristol. But nothing will come quickly.

There’s a limit on how far Virginia could extend this train, based upon schedules and not adding train sets to the various corridors. Look at when the last train to Roanoke arrives and the first train departs. That train will have to turnaround for the return trip, because I doubt Amtrak or Virginia will want to place a maintenance shed at the end of the line. The last train arrives at 9:55 pm, and the first train departs at 6:19 am. So there is around 8.5 hours of layover time overnight. Are they using the same on board operating crew the following day based from D.C. and they need those 8 hours off? If so, they can’t extend the train much further because of crew availability issues. If they can base a crew in western Virginia to overcome crew limitations, then the limit will be based upon the train set itself. They could extend the train westward another 4 hours - at most - for it to turnaround and return back to Roanoke in time for its existing departure time. In the mountains, the maximum speed of the train will probably be around 60 mph, so the maximum they could probably extend the train is another 240 miles. Bristol is approximately 150 miles away from Roanoke, a possibility as far as the rolling stock is concerned. Other cities in Tennessee further west are not. More rolling stock will be required, and that will change the metrics Virginia sees subsidizing this train, to the worse.

electricron wrote:Bristol is approximately 150 miles away from Roanoke, a possibility as far as the rolling stock is concerned. Other cities in Tennessee further west are not. More rolling stock will be required, and that will change the metrics Virginia sees subsidizing this train, to the worse.

Anything beyond Bristol - for which the state of Virginia indeed has plans for rail passenger service - is not a Virginia responsibility anyway, however. It then becomes either a Tennessee matter to subsidize extended service, or a national system train (over 750 miles) and thus potentially a federal funding responsibility. Such would tend to go over like a lead balloon in the state legislature, but as alluded to by a poster above, you have to start somewhere (and Virginia has literally already laid the foundation). So long as Virginia remained content to continue subsidizing its portion, the added incremental cost for equipment, servicing, and extension to (at least) Knoxville is likely a reasonable proposal.

I'm not so sure that Tennessee is really that skeptical.

They've now seen the results as far south and west as Lynchburg and I'm sure they aren't exactly expecting bad news from Roanoke either.

If the trains are still heavily used coming out of Bristol I think we are going to see some serious consideration from Tennessee for service to Knoxville.

For the moment because they have so little service the "myth" of "lost and gone forever" or "empty trains" still holds the people in its grip.

gokeefe wrote:I'm not so sure that Tennessee is really that skeptical.

They've now seen the results as far south and west as Lynchburg and I'm sure they aren't exactly expecting bad news from Roanoke either.

If the trains are still heavily used coming out of Bristol I think we are going to see some serious consideration from Tennessee for service to Knoxville.

For the moment because they have so little service the "myth" of "lost and gone forever" or "empty trains" still holds the people in its grip.

Tennessee isn’t subsidizing a train as long as I-40 isn’t congested into a parking lot. If and when that occurrs, a train from Bristol to Memphis, connecting the entire state east to west via Nashville, is a political possibility. I do not see Amtrak funding another long distance train paralleling the Crescent on either side of the Applachians. There just isn’t enough passenger demand going to New Orleans to run two different trains from the NEC.
Besides the point there isn’t any long distance rolling stock available to do the job anyways. Extending regional NEC as far as they can go and still return the following day per the schedule is where Virginia found enough rolling stock. Virginia is only paying its share of the total maintaining this rolling stock. That’s a major reason why Virginia subsidies it has to pay every year is almost nil.

electricron wrote:

gokeefe wrote:I'm not so sure that Tennessee is really that skeptical.

They've now seen the results as far south and west as Lynchburg and I'm sure they aren't exactly expecting bad news from Roanoke either.

If the trains are still heavily used coming out of Bristol I think we are going to see some serious consideration from Tennessee for service to Knoxville.

For the moment because they have so little service the "myth" of "lost and gone forever" or "empty trains" still holds the people in its grip.

Tennessee isn’t subsidizing a train as long as I-40 isn’t congested into a parking lot. If and when that occurrs, a train from Bristol to Memphis, connecting the entire state east to west via Nashville, is a political possibility. I do not see Amtrak funding another long distance train paralleling the Crescent on either side of the Applachians. There just isn’t enough passenger demand going to New Orleans to run two different trains from the NEC.
Besides the point there isn’t any long distance rolling stock available to do the job anyways. Extending regional NEC as far as they can go and still return the following day per the schedule is where Virginia found enough rolling stock. Virginia is only paying its share of the total maintaining this rolling stock. That’s a major reason why Virginia subsidies it has to pay every year is almost nil.

The lack of an extant parallel railroad along I-40 just might have some bearing on that hypothesis. Despite that, though, why would impeded traffic flow along the interstate be a prerequisite for regional passenger train service? Most passenger routes across the nation run parallel to good roads with respectable traffic flow, at least outside of urban areas.

The "end points" (and resulting passenger demand) of the Northeast (Corridor) and New Orleans would be almost insignificant when considering the prospects for a new route almost (or completely) unique to that of the Crescent. As pointed out many times, most business is to and from intermediate points; Few passengers are travelling the entire distance. A New Orleans train via Roanoke, Knoxville, and Chattanooga isn't competing with a train serving Charlotte and Atlanta.

New services take years (and arguably longer than it really should) to come to fruition. Planning and other work (much of it political) needs to be underway now for trains which wouldn't launch for several years or longer. Even at the glacial pace demonstrated by CAF, even they'd have plenty of time to deliver new cars before they could possibly be needed by an expanded national network.

I think there is some question whether or not Tennessee would consider funding service if they only have to pay for it to Bristol, VA.

That could be a very good deal for them if it in fact worked that way. Good enough that I think they would seriously consider it.

The Birmingham special timetable very closely mirrors the present Amtrak schedule proposed to <> from Roanoke. looking at its schedule gives persons how the proposed train would run. That being the case several points to consider for your proposals. For each terminating station ------
1. Radford ------------ 5 hour turn. possible 2-1/2 hour delays occasionally means just 2-1/2 hours to turn train. Is there even a wye close by or would train have to be push - pull ?
2. Bristol ===== Station wye has been long removed. If restored wye; train would have to back onto excepted track with street running and by 2 cross streets 3 hand throw switches including one in street.. Other wye is along that same street running for 2 - 1/2 miles crossing 2 additional cross street including one with intersection of 2 streets in middle of two legs;. with 2 more hand throw switches and excepted track === money . Definitely would need one additional train set if the schedule below is used.
3. Knoxville ---------Makes for good overnight service to / from NEC . Definitely need one more train set. Nearest wye ?? Know it is somewhat distant.
4. Chattanooga --------- Same as Knoxville but no wye needed if Chattanooga used as it is a back in station. New station several wyes. Close for one additional train set.
5. Birmingham ----------- Could easily connect both ways to present Crescent. 3:20 turn difficult for only one additional train set. Nearest wye ???
6, Memphis ======== Would require 2 additional train sets but could connect to CNO trains to / from CHI Close by wye ?


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east point wrote:3. Knoxville ---------Makes for good overnight service to / from NEC . Definitely need one more train set. Nearest wye ?? Know it is somewhat distant.

Whatever it is I can almost guarantee it will be daytime service.

IF a passenger station still exists at Bristol,is it in Va or Tn? Figure on state support ends at the state line if the station is on the Tn side.
Given the the town swells in population when NASCAR is in town (at Bristol Motor Speedway no less),
could Amtrak deal with the extra demand on race weekends?
It might be better to wait and see how Roanoke and the Thruway "feeder" buses do passenger count wise for now.
I-81 on race weekends does get congested. and has over time become a an alternate route to I -95 (I-81 to I 75 to Florida).