New Midwest/California Bi-Level Discussion

Okay, I am not an engineer and don't know what I am talking about, but . . .

The Nippon Sharyo car body was almost there. The car survived 798,000 lbs compression - so very close to the required 800,000 lbs.

So is it a simple matter of increasing the strength of the structural members slightly? If the main structural supports of the car are made just slightly thicker, is that adequate? Would that be all that's necessary?

Why was this an insurmountable problem for NS? I believe someone said that the new Metro North cars initially failed their first test. Isn't that the purpose of a test? To see what happens and then remedy it?

I'm just thinking out loud here. I am so mystified by this whole situation.

Exactly, bostontrainguy. I'm not an engineer either (though I know several), but this sounds more like a financial decision than a technical one. Otherwise, how would Nippon Sharyo not be able to do what Budd, then P-S, then Bombardier, then Alstom (twice!) did to build similar designs with only moderately more progressive requirements?

One does not simply give up on a contract for several hundred railcars.

Some of us have a suspicion that there is more to the crush failure than just a few thousand pounds short of 800,000. Could it be that the failure did not meet the FRA requirements for gradual failure but was catastrophic ?

Figure on some officials at Rochelle and at the HQ in Japan doing the resign (fall on sword) routine shortly.
Since Seimens is now the "contractor of record",would like to see how the trap(stairs)issue is handled now.
And how fast production at Sacramento starts to ramp up!
The basic car design has passed the 800,000 lbs crush test.

Sounds like they are trying to get around normal re-bidding procedures. What are the financial consequences to N-S of failing on this contract?

Here's a thought. Illinois is patently unfriendly to business, ranking usually in the last five states of business-friendly states. Is Nippon Sharyo trying to get out of Illinois, which means shaking loose any car orders in the state? A number of high profile manufacturing firms have given a public ultimatum and Caterpillar has progressively moved out.

Recent articles have noted that insurance and Workman's comp rates are about double in Illinois. The state and city of Chicago are functionally bankrupt. We are in BIG trouble. Perhaps N-S has decided they want nothing to do with this. Could be something like property taxes as well.

In related news, the Chinese are building a subway car factory in Hegewisch near the South Shore station, and I predict that one goes empty after the CTA order is fulfilled.

Mr. Dunville, I certainly hear where you are coming from. How often during my years in practice did I hear "why can't I just pay someone some $$ and let them worry about taxes, insurance, and whatever? (God help a "boss" if caught)".

Of course the flip side is the worker's perspective. How often.have I heard "don't get hurt on the job in Indiana".

Finally, as the primary Midwest customer for these cars. I there will be placed in the right places to "buy Illinois".

Tadman wrote:Here's a thought. Illinois is patently unfriendly to business, ranking usually in the last five states of business-friendly states. Is Nippon Sharyo trying to get out of Illinois, which means shaking loose any car orders in the state? A number of high profile manufacturing firms have given a public ultimatum and Caterpillar has progressively moved out. Recent articles have noted that insurance and Workman's comp rates are about double in Illinois. The state and city of Chicago are functionally bankrupt. We are in BIG trouble. Perhaps N-S has decided they want nothing to do with this. Could be something like property taxes as well. In related news, the Chinese are building a subway car factory in Hegewisch near the South Shore station, and I predict that one goes empty after the CTA order is fulfilled.

Ironic for the once home state of the Pullman Company. The CRRC site is not far from Pullman and just barely two decades ago, MK/Amerail was building Viewliner sleeper shells at the Pullman works.

R36 Combine Coach wrote:

Tadman wrote:Here's a thought. Illinois is patently unfriendly to business, ranking usually in the last five states of business-friendly states. Is Nippon Sharyo trying to get out of Illinois, which means shaking loose any car orders in the state? A number of high profile manufacturing firms have given a public ultimatum and Caterpillar has progressively moved out. Recent articles have noted that insurance and Workman's comp rates are about double in Illinois. The state and city of Chicago are functionally bankrupt. We are in BIG trouble. Perhaps N-S has decided they want nothing to do with this. Could be something like property taxes as well. In related news, the Chinese are building a subway car factory in Hegewisch near the South Shore station, and I predict that one goes empty after the CTA order is fulfilled.

Ironic for the once home state of the Pullman Company. The CRRC site is not far from Pullman and just barely two decades ago, MK/Amerail was building Viewliner sleeper shells at the Pullman works.

If you look at a map, the new CRRC plant is immediately adjacent to what was once the Pressed Steel Car Company. I think that site left the railcar business prewar, however, and the trend continues. Pullman is gone. EMD is a shell of its former self, with most operations in Indiana.

Mr. Norman also makes an interesting point about the worker's perspective in Indiana, IE "don't get hurt in Indiana". I used to be in management at a unionized firm in South Bend. A number of guys got hurt but there were never any "raw deals". In fact, I recall a case where a guy fell and injured himself. The injuries reactivated a lapsed condition that later killed the guy. Workman's Comp automatically assigned that death to the firm, even though he had a prior serious medical condition, and we had to have the lawyers adjust things. The Indiana workers still gets a pretty good deal.

Back to Nippon Sharyo - I haven't seen anybody build a railcar factory in Illinois in my life that isn't trying to sell to CTA, Metra, or Illinois. My nose is telling me there is some serious political intrigue here.

https://www.narprail.org/news/hotline/h ... ornia-and/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

frequentflyer wrote:https://www.narprail.org/news/hotline/h ... ornia-and/

Interesting but ...
I hope NARP has fact-checked this item. Aside from a quote from NARP's boss, there's nothing in the item to suggest NARP has any information, posted elsewhere or removed, that hasn't been in this thread, and remains unconfirmed.

The NARP article doesn't say anything that hasn't been talked about here. There's been no official comment on this from CalTran, IDOT, N-S, or anybody else. This is still all conjecture.

As someone said upthread,something went seriously south on the 800,000 lb test,that must have shaken up the mangement
at the factory to the core.
Maybe to the point of admitting failure,is unknown for now.
Siemens became the fallback option after the "Brightline" cars passed that test,and could be modded for other services.

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blo ... start.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the 800 000 Lbs crush test has been in effect for decades , even the M1 and M3 exceeded that threshold by over 20% the magic number is not a line that should be barely crossed but a test that should be exceeded and not by just a few pounds.

Mn had a M3 pair with mismatched numbers cause Budd insisted on proven how high it could go , the car started to deform at 1002 227 Lbs in 1984, go figure.

DutchRailnut wrote:the 800,000 Lbs crush test has been in effect for decades , even the M1 and M3 exceeded that threshold by over 20% the magic number is not a line that should be barely crossed but a test that should be exceeded and not by just a few pounds. MN had a M3 pair with mismatched numbers cause Budd insisted on proven how high it could go , the car started to deform at 1002 227 Lbs in 1984, go figure.

In fact a 1956 ICC rule for all passenger MUs built/delivered new as of 4/1/56: 49 CFR 229 Sec 141 . The ICC rule was superseded and broadened by FRA in 1999 to all passenger equipment, including unpowered coaches and trailers as well.