Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

BandA wrote:Years and years ago, I watched an NHK (Japan) English broadcast that mentioned how the railroad there would set up temporary high platforms overnight when they need to work on a station. Mostly a stack of big Styrofoam blocks with a covering on top. Looked as good as a permanent platform. Never seen anything like that tried around here. May be off topic, but might help with some of these temporary stations you folks are throwing around, without disrupting existing services for construction.

I wan to say that Metro North still has platform cars for this purpose?

Don't think so. Only thing I've ever seen them use are aluminum bridges or (in the case of Devon) a scratch-build wooden platform.

EuroStar wrote:These shuttles are just a bad idea and won't happen. There is absolutely no way to get a full 10 MLV train coming from Trenton or Dover to disembark and transfer onto a shuttle at Secaucus. It is slow, inefficient use of scarce Secaucus tracks, the passengers won't like it and someone is going to get hurt in the stampedes up and down the escalators and the stairs. Doing it at Newark Penn or Newark Broad is no better.

There is no space at Jamaica for turning as the LIRR will need all the capacity they can get there. There is not enough equipment (ALP45s) to even consider running to Jamaica and NJT equipment has never made it past Harold. Who is to guarantee that the clearances are there for the ALPs and the MLVs? They probably are, but they have never been checked and checking them is a painful long process whose undertaking is not justified.

I do not understand the operations of LIRR enough to even venture a guess what they could do, but for NJT it is pretty clear that they need to bite the bullet and choose who to inconvenience. My best run at it is:

1. Close Secaucus for the duration of the repairs. Anyone using Bergen/Main/Port Jervis/Pascack Valley lines goes to Hoboken. That way the lines that continue to run into Penn don't need space for the Secaucus transfers onboard. Inbound delays are avoided because there is no people trying to cram into an already full train coming from Trenton, Long Branch or Dover. Outbound the complex dance of trains not stopping at Secaucus passing trains stopped at Secaucus is avoided, so delays are again reduced.
2. Cut the number of NEC, Coastline and Dover trains. Make all of them local. Run with the maximum number of cars possible, not the maximum number used in the past. For the MLVs if needed double the engines. For the EMUs just go as long as possible. Insiders need to fill me in on the numbers, could you run 14-15 EMUs? How about 12-14 MLVs with two engines? If you still need to cut trains, the Coastline will be it as it has the lowest ridership.
3. All Montclair and Gladstone trains also go to Hoboken. Passengers get to choose whether to go to Hoboken or switch at Newark Broad or Summit to/from the Dover trains.
4. Raritan Valley is of course cut to Newark Penn even off-peak.

It is going to suck for the riding public, but it will suck no matter what you do. So simplify operations, so that you can run them on a tighter schedule allowing for a few more trains in and out as opposed to keep every line's access to Penn and guarantee delays, missed connections and general chaos.

Another complication that occurred to me is that not all tracks at NYP can handle very long trains, and some of those will be out of service on a rotating basis, so it will be critical (and difficult) to run trains no longer than can be accommodated on 2 or more tracks at NYP around their ETA.

re the shuttle idea
assume one north river tunnel closed for rehab and one for shuttles.
would need bi directional running.
maybe at certain peaks of rush hour longer periods of to NYP in AM and from NYP in PM
assume half the station tracks are closed for rehab
assume one set of east river tunnels closed for rehab
so one set open which allows one tunnel for each direction to/from LI

tracks 1-4 would not be used as they do not run east

when the northern north river tunnel is used tracks 5 to 19 are accessible each of those appears to be able to hold 10 cars

say they had two or even four at a time while all the other tracks are rehabbed

if the northern east river tunnels are used then some of tracks 14 to 19 could be used
if the southern east river tunnels are used then some of 5 to 16 could be used

when the southern north river tunnel is paired with the northern east river tunnels again some of 14-19
and paired with southern east river tunnels again some of 5-16

what would the max number of trains that could be run in such a setup?
every how many minutes could they run say from the :01 to :29 west to east and :31 to :59 east to west?
(the big choke point would be one north river tunnel)

Can the raritan and coast line be sent to Hoboken with a "cheap" track project?

The Hoboken trains and the NYP trains are like 10 feet apart at this location:

https://goo.gl/maps/Ggi2BKPrxgT2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some North Jersey Coast Line trains have been regularly run out of Hoboken Terminal, so the connecting tracks do exist. The ticket agents at Hoboken Terminal have to ask "What State", when selling a ticket to Middletown.

Yes, that is NJ Transit's "Waterfront Connection". It is used for some limited revenue moves from NJCL and RVL to Hoboken. As well as eqpt moves to all the NJT Newark Division lines and the MMC.

But it is single track, and westbound moves need to cross opposing traffic at both ends, limiting its capacity.

I didnt realize it was in active use. I am sure they could squeeze in a couple of extra trains, and alleviate a small portion of the congestion. Fares are $4 cheaper, so maybe they can bundle in the ferry ride for the same cost commuters currently pay.

Much easier than say, running trains to here, which appears to be possible, track-wise, but would probably require a pretty penny to make passenger ready.
https://goo.gl/maps/aWB5Xb4DBs92" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If I was LIRR, I would also be looking into maximizing moves into Long Island City with the adjacent (and just reactivated) ferry service.

Combine these detours with Amtrak heading into Grand Central for the Albany service and you have yourself some much needed breathing room.

That's the NJNY yard,the ex PRR float yard,well beyond passenger useable.

jamesinclair wrote:Can the raritan and coast line be sent to Hoboken with a "cheap" track project?

The Hoboken trains and the NYP trains are like 10 feet apart at this location:

https://goo.gl/maps/Ggi2BKPrxgT2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The eastbound Waterfront connection exists. My understanding is that the biggest issue with the westbound one is that Path tracks are in the way and the required track modifications make it a costly project which is why it was not undertaken back in the day when the eastbound connection was built. On top of that you don't want to do it until the design of the four track NEC through the area is complete. And then you have the capacity constraint at Hoboken which will only be alleviated by the filling of the Long Slip canal and the installation of another 6 station tracks there. Unfortunately while this has been talked about for more than 20 years, the money was not found, so it was not built. Now the best you can do is decide which lines/trains loose service into NYP this summer.

Perhaps we've covered this, but has the railroad considered short-turning the LD trains from the south at Philly or DC during trackwork? You take 6 LD pairs out of the way by doing so.

I think that has been raised as a possibility somewhere on here in the past. Perhaps even go up to Newark, and yard the train in the NJT facility near Kearny? With NJT's blessing of course.

Think the LD discussion so far has been pertaining to the Hudson inbound LD's (Adirondack, Ethan Allen, LSL, Maple Leaf), with the solution being to run them via MNRR to New Rochelle and approach Penn from the East. As for the LDs to/from points South, the Philly/DC angle makes sense provided they can service the LD equipment. Would imagine DC can but Philly only has the Pennsylvanian so not sure about the capabilities there.

If the "Empire" LD's came in from the East, I'd probably ride one just for the experience

I think I'd do the same Greg, that'd be a fun detour from a rail fan's perspective