East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

No Troopers,

I think you're missing my point as an East End Country Boy. After working a long hard day in the fields, this westbound can get me into mid-town in time to check into my hotel by midnight and get a good night's sleep before hitting the city bricks Saturday morning. My experience is NYC is deserted on summer weekends and a fine time to explore. This gives me all day and night Saturday to prowl and a mid-day return to Greenport on Sunday - refreshed and ready for another week on the fishing boat!!

NIMBY, yeah, it's been a long time. Grab Joe T. and come out to see all the new stuff at the Museums!
de Don n2qhvRMLI

Call for expanded service: Suffolk Times

Fair-use SNIPS:

Officials call for improved mass transit on East End

Improved rail service on the East End will be the topic of an upcoming meeting between town and village officials and representatives from the Long Island Rail Road, according to South Fork Assemblyman Fred Thiele.

The meeting is scheduled for 1 p.m. July 8 at Riverhead Town Hall and officials are hoping to put together a priority list of things they’d like to see from the LIRR, Mr. Thiele said.

That list is likely to include a call to restore year-round weekend service on the North Fork, which was cut in 2010 and never restored, and bringing back the rail shuttle service that was used on the South Fork when County Road 39 was being widened, Mr. Thiele said.
...
Mr. Tillman suggested that old rail stations like Calverton be reopened, so people going to businesses like Tanger Outlets, Splish Splash and the Long Island Aquarium could arrive by rail. Businesses could then provide a shuttle.

He said people could take a train to Greenport, and then have a shuttle to the Orient ferry for a trip to Connecticut casinos.

Mr. Thiele said another goal is to enact the recommendations of the state-funded Volpe study from 2009, which called for setting up a system of shuttle trains on the East End tracks that would coordinate with a network feeder buses to bring people to various places on the East End.

The state’s Capital Budget allocated $37.2 million for new “diesel multiple units,” often called “scoot trains.” The scoot trains were expected to ride back and forth on the LIRR main line between Ronkonkoma and Greenport in place of the passenger trains there now.

But earlier this year, MTA spokesman Sal Arena said in an interview that the scoot trains that were available for purchase weren’t compatible with the LIRR track system on the East End.
...
As for the restoration of weekend service in the winter on the North Fork, Mr. Arena said in February: “Ridership on weekend Greenport trains is historically very light in the off-season, generally less than 30 people per train. Given the high cost of operating this service and the low utilization, there are no plans at present to restore weekend service to Greenport between December and May.”
...

LIRR plans to restore weekend service between Ronkonkoma and Greenport all year long: Link

LIRR customers no longer have to wait until summer to take a ride to Greenport. MTA Long Island Rail Road President Patrick A. Nowakowski announced that the LIRR plans to provide weekend service to Greenport on a year-round basis.

Weekend service to Greenport, the seaside village and popular summer and fall destination on Suffolk County's North Fork, was scheduled to end after the Thanksgiving Weekend.
...
"One improvement we can make immediately for the North Fork is to extend weekend service from Ronkonkoma to Greenport to year-round," said Nowakowski. "We have in fact included that extra service in the Railroad's July financial plan."

Nowakowski added that the LIRR was "looking forward to continuing the discussion with our East End partners and we are optimistic that we can come up with additional enhancements to improve our service "

It's nice to see the LIRR doing something to improve East End service, but if this is just going to be the same old schedule of 2 round trips a day that's literally impossible for people living on the North Fork to use to go to NYC, why bother?

Good news indeed. However with leased equipment being a non option and replacement + expansion of the diesel fleet years away I doubt that we'll see anything more happen for some time.

8702 and 8703 should be year round also. After 8701 the next westbound out of montauk is at 330pm thats too long of a gap for train service.

Riverduckexpress wrote:It's nice to see the LIRR doing something to improve East End service, but if this is just going to be the same old schedule of 2 round trips a day that's literally impossible for people living on the North Fork to use to go to NYC, why bother?

Out of curiosity, how many round trips could a Greenport scoot make with current equipment, tracks and signals? How many if another equipment set was available with current tracks and signals?

How much more time would be required if these scoots ran making some/all stops to Farmingdale (current main line track setup, maybe move the storage tracks behind the north platform closer for passenger access, allow them to change ends with out fouling up the main line and another switch to go east without needed to go thru the entire siding) or express in electrified territory to Hicksville (after double tracking and maybe add stops especially in Suffolk for jury access)?

For the Greenport scoot, it can make 2 am and 2 pm round trips per day with the one dedicated consist and 2 crews C&E only. Each crew doing 2 round trips.

With a second consist, and a 3rd crew you can add 2 daytime round trips mid day to late afternoon.

However either crew won't have an eastbound scheduled at 1130p-12am hour. Which is clearly needed with the 4am westbound am peak service.

This round trip will make greenport service more user friendly and acceptable for a 1 day get away.

hrfcarl wrote:

Riverduckexpress wrote:It's nice to see the LIRR doing something to improve East End service, but if this is just going to be the same old schedule of 2 round trips a day that's literally impossible for people living on the North Fork to use to go to NYC, why bother?

Out of curiosity, how many round trips could a Greenport scoot make with current equipment, tracks and signals?

I tried to come up with a hypothetical weekend schedule using one set of equipment:

- Deadhead from Ronkonkoma to Greenport (6 AMish to 7:30AMish, new trip)
- Passenger trip from Greenport to Ronkonkoma (8:11 AM to 9:35 AM, new trip, transfer to 8015 which leaves Ronkonkoma at 9:40 AM and arrives at Penn at 10:59 AM)
- Passenger trip from Ronkonkoma to Greenport (10:37 AM to 12:02 PM, current trip 6200)
- Passenger trip from Greenport to Ronkonkoma (1:11 PM to 2:35 PM, current trip 6201)
- Passenger trip from Ronkonkoma to Greenport (3:37 PM to 5:02 PM, current trip 6202)
- Passenger trip from Greenport to Ronkonkoma (6:11 PM to 7:35 PM, current trip 6203)
- Passenger trip from Ronkonkoma to Greenport (8:37 PM to 10:02 PM, new trip, transfer from 8064 which leaves Penn at 7:12 PM and arrives at Ronkonkoma at 8:31 PM)
- Deadhead trip from Greenport to Ronkonkoma (10:30ish to 12:00AMish, new trip).

During the summer if demand is there I think you could even run that deadhead as a passenger trip, have it leave Greenport at 11:11 PM, arrive at Ronkonkoma at 12:35 AM, and it could connect to 8001, which leaves Ronkonkoma at 12:46 AM and arrives at Penn at 2:06 AM. A potential super-late trip home for people taking a day trip to the East End. But I totally get if that's too crazy to work.

So with this hypothetical schedule you get one new passenger trip in each direction while maintaining the current schedule and still only using one set of equipment. I wouldn't call this hypothetical schedule good, but it's at least actually usable by people living on the North Fork who want to travel to the city. The deadheading is unfortunate, but what are you gonna do?

I'm not sure about the other questions, too many variables for me.

I'm still shocked they couldn't find DMUs for this run, we have FRA DMUs that are viable, or even god fordbid a cheap locomotive driven 3 car scoot that would not use the needed multilevel units, no?

IF anything,LIRR could ask MN or ConnDOT if they could "borrow" a couple of 2 car(coach+cab car)sets
with a pair of BL20GH's to power them,that's the cheap fix,along with MN personel to keep them running.

The leasing equipment/DMU stuff has been beaten to death. They aren't long term solutions.

First of all, the trains need to be running what they are capable of. The run between Riverhead and Ronkonkoma especially is not competitive with the L.I.E., not even close. If you can cut 10-20 minutes off the schedule, that is a win.

The next thing is to run a through train on Friday's, aka the Shelter Island Express. Either you move it's time to match-up with the equipment move (leaves Jamaica at 3:10), or you slot it about 5 minutes in front of 2058 (the current connection for this train). This train would run EXPRESS to Mattituck or Riverhead. I only say Mattituck first because if you want it to be a North Fork-Cannonball of sorts, you need to run it like one. A train that makes a statement. However, this plan would also allow 252 to still run to Yaphank, so I would be more primed to say that the express would make a Riverhead stop.

So these things need to happen for all of this to work:

- Suffolk finding some way to put a lot of money into this (and they are certainly good at that already)
- Main Line Double Track
This is actually really important for this to work. Right now, there are really constraints because of the single track sections. Once Ronkonkoma-Deer Park is double tracked, people will see real improvements to service, including this type of service
- Major infrastructure improvements on the East End
The whole nine yards. The moment things are faster, the quicker people will notice change. Although it is a pleasant ride, it is not fast enough. Improving times will get peoples attention instead of more slow trains to no where

There are plenty of sections of the Greenport section of the Mainline that are straight but unfortunately, the speeds aren't fast on them as the tracks are probably not in the best shape. If the train wants to go faster, than the right of way has to be upgraded to permit higher speeds east of Ronkonkoma. Nobody who is in a rush will want to sit on a train doing 40 most of the way between Ronkonkoma and Greenport. Not many people live along the Greenport Line and those who do most likely take the Hampton Jitney, especially those in Riverhead and points east. Give or take, the Hampton Jitney is the best way to travel from the North Fork to NYC because they serve many of the smaller villages such as Cutchogue that aren't served by the train. In addition, the bus runs more frequently than the train.

The three most important projects that the MTA needs to focus on more for the LIRR.
1. As other's mentioned, the third track on the Main Line between Floral Pk and Hickville.
2. The double track between Farmingdale and Ronkonkoma
3. It would be nice to have some more capacity improvements on the Montauk Line.

The Montauk branch is a given, the project is months away from happening. The equipment is already in place. Like I said, if they ever do put in the multi-millions to redevelop the Main Line, there will be the ability for them to actually compete with the Jitney or North Fork Express. By offer services that are convenient, direct, and more frequent there can be a way to make the Main Line east of Ronkonkoma actually worthwhile for residents and the people that help the North Fork function.

Try telling that to anyone with power, and you will just get laughed at. There is no vision of what there can be, there is no care for ways to get cars off the clogged roads. All there is for them is what they get back in return. Since no politician around here actually cares about the people they serve, only about how big they can make their ego over the next guy with power, the chances of something as this project happening will continue to rot away just as the dried up ties and rusty rails of the Main Line that lie there now.

Apologies about going into a rant, but having lived in a time where a lack of awareness and forward thinking has really made a joke of things. Every weekend the trains to Montauk are late because the long trains can't fit on the platforms. Heck the Greenport service can't grow because you can only spot one car of a three car train. It's nuts! That's all I can say.

The evidence is here folks. The "decision makers" of the 1990s with their emphasis on Political Correctness and their university education supersedes commonsense attitudes and beliefs have effectively destroyed the "can do" culture with their implementing of "can't do" and "fear and intimidation" culture.

As long as these failures and hacks continue to populate any decision making position the ability to improve is non existent.
The few who know what can be done. Believe me there are still a small few. Albeit small. Have to negotiate very trey rouse territory here. similar to how Mr. Moorman had to very slowly change NS.
If LIRR can rid it slef of this cancer. Many positive things can happen.

workextra, political correctness and higher education has absolutely nothing to do with this. I'd argue the problem is the MTA is underfunded, and in the end, it's primary purpose on Long Island was/is to provide pure commuter service to and from NYC. Only recently with the advent of the cannonball and expanded east end service/summer population have they looked at these branches as something more than curious appendages to their core system. This slow shift in additude combined with the general lack of interest on the part of politicians on the state level has hampered the implementation of intra-east end service, and the fact that Suffolk county (I believe) does not pay into the MTA can't help.
The MTA also has to confront the fact that the DE/DM/C3 fleet is close to 100% utilization at all times, and because of that , the LIRR understandably would like to keep them on their larger diesel markets, namely the Montauk and PJ lines. As they are strapped for capital cash with the east side access debacle, they don't have the dough to acquire more diesels and if they did, I'd imagine they'd want them for their heavily traveled lines.
The LIRR is famous for their 'if the market exists, we'll take it' attitude. I don't see them investing 200+ million in what essentially is a 'if we build it, they will come' kind of project. That for economic development agencies, not a commuter railroad that already has a hard time serving its existing markets. Which brings me to my last point: if real north fork service is going to happen, it will probably need to be subsidized by the east end towns themselves, with the state probably kicking in some cash. As much as we'd all love to see this happen, the LIRR has some bigger fish to fry.