Southern Tier - West of Binghamton

Matt Langworthy wrote:Do you have any documentation on this? From what I've heard, the state was the party dragging its heals to replace the bridge.

Last I checked, it's not the State's bridge to do or not do ANYTHING with, so anything the state did or did not want to give NS money for is completely irrelevant. That was my point, that NS is only doing anything on the bridge at all because the state threw them some free coin. Wouldn't we all like free handouts for everything?

I can only speak from experience on the Chicago line that on all of my multi-day visits in recent years, the average for traffic on the Chicago line is at least 3 trains per hour. I never experienced that in CR days. Meanwhile, traffic on EVERY line owned by NS north or east of Harrisburg has been on a significant downward trajectory for most of the period of NS ownership. And stock price is hardly the determining factor of who is running the more successful railroad. Lots of great railroading has stock that performs only marginally well, lots of crap business wheeling and dealing while letting the railroad go to hell has top-spot stock value... good railroading simply is not a business that can be based on day to day stock values. I'm no more interested in hearing about stock value as a measure of good railroading, than using that as a measure to determine who must make the "better" hamburger in deciding where to eat. In fact, it likely would often be an inverse relationship.

It's been said by several others, traffic on the D&H and Tier is way down. I'm not going to debate the existence of that reality or the semantics of "yes, but" any more here.

oibu wrote:I can only speak from experience on the Chicago line that on all of my multi-day visits in recent years, the average for traffic on the Chicago line is at least 3 trains per hour. I never experienced that in CR days.

ok.. I can safely assume that you're not from here (Chicago line) I have been to Chicago Line A LOT from 94 to 99 before the Day One and from 99, after Day One to... maybe 2005 or so. I have been going to trackside once a while now. I still see the same stuffs but with different symbols. Conrail ran MORE than CSX did EVEN on West side of Buffalo, CR and NS ran MORE than CSX and NS did now. CR ran 50+ on Sunday and Monday to 70+ on tues to Thrs, with + being extra that CR threw in. Sometimes CR approaching to magic 80 or excess 80, depend on coals, extra, coke, light moves, high/wide move, circus... CSX is running 40 on Sunday and Monday to 60 on Tues to Thrs with shorter and less on intermodals, even during xmas rush. Yes, they ran more manifest trains than CR did at the beginning but they're running less manifest trains now I believe. (they abolished couple of them as I heard) During CR days, they ran longer intermodals with 3,4, or more engines, even 4,400 HP engines. On CR's famous TVLA, they ALWAYS ran 4 engines no matter how long UPS train it is (they're usually LONG anyway). and they typical have 2 TVLA during xmas rush. I don't see that on CSX right now.

On west side of buffalo. Prior to Day one, NS ran 20 trains to/from buffalo. After that, it dropped to 12. and I think it's still around that number now. For CR, the number was A LOT more than East of Buffalo. After Day One, the number DROPPED big time that it is no longer enjoyable to railfanning there anymore. There is not many trains that terminate and originated at/from Buffalo now as it used to be during CR days for west. I sat at Lake Ave for 36 hours and saw 101 trains of CSX, NS, SB, BS and of course, 2 lateforsure I can guarantee that you WILL NOT see that numbers... NOWHERE near that numbers....

In fact, its pretty much orange and apple comparison....

oibu wrote:All well and fine, but compare with say 10-20 years ago..... overall traffic through Binghamton is unquestionably at or near historic low levels. Which was also the case in the late 80s and early 90s time periods referenced above, as compared with both earlier and later time periods. 1987-1992 was the decline of Guilford, removal of ELOI/OIEL, D&H designated operator due to bankruptcy, etc. and the 257/258, CR multilevel trains, various incarnations of 168/169/268/269/205/206 etc. and some other CP symbols etc. had yet to arrive on the scene. So yes, it doesn't look too bad right now IF you only compare it with the preceding lowest traffic volume point in history... compare with 1995-2010+/-, or pre 1980s, and either way it falls far short. But yes, for a few years in the late 80s/early 90s, traffic was low enough to be comparable with today.

you forget something...

good 12-16 trains were going through ST until...1996? Yes? that was when CR completed their clearance project over PRR line and they shifted their doublestack trains to PRR... Remember TV78? TV79? where did u think they went to? ML 40x? where did that go too? Yup PRR

and when NS took over... yup they shifted these trains over to PRR... they don't want run on NJT on Eastern ST... They don't want headache with commuter trains.

The reason they're building new bridge... so they can run train to PAR... that's the MAIN reason... Buffalo inland port thing I think that's BS thing that NS use that as political thing to get $. But now they bought that Sunbury line. YUP!! that might change thing again... where did 531/2 go now? yup rerouted to Sunbury... so ST is back to shelf again and useless...

However I believe that NS is still stuck with contract that CR had with NYS. CR agreed with NYS that CR must keep line alive no matter what. (if I remember right.. someone correct me) When CR wanted to abandoned the line, NYS jumped in and made deal with CR. NYS gave $ to CR for maintenance the line. In turn, CR agree to keep the line and keep running the trains on the line. (memory vague but that what I remember as best I could, but I may be wrong in part) So I believe that NS swallowed that agreement since there is no mention about that such as agreement removed. The money that NS got from NYS for new bridge that I recall was so small compare to what whole project cost...

Conrail couldn't run any NJ stack traffic over PRR because the bridge on the Lehigh Line wasn't cleared for stacks until well after NS took over. Therefore, just about anything with port stacks took the NYC routing, aside from the one lonely train that went out the Southern Tier to appease the state. Also remember that the Panama Canal stole a whole lot of land bridge traffic away from the railroads around the time of the takeover. Containers from China to Europe were bridged from LA to NJ and then put back on a boat across the Atlantic. That traffic is non-existant now. There used to be unit SeaLand trains, unit APL trains, unit K Line trains all to port, so if there was extra traffic, that's probably where it came from. Very little traffic from port NYNJ ever sees the rails, and only recently from their new on dock rail has it made even a slight comeback. But what the Panama Canal taketh away, it also gives back. With the expansion, traffic patterns could again change and the glory of international stacks might make a big comeback in the eastern third of the United States at the expense of the west.

But now they bought that Sunbury line. YUP!! that might change thing again... where did 531/2 go now? yup rerouted to Sunbury... so ST is back to shelf again and useless...

Not sure I would call the Tier "useless" because an occasional coal train was rerouted off of it ......That Bow coal traffic routing has bounced back and forth over the past 30 years. Not really anything new there.

Anyways, as we all are aware, the northeast (and the US in general) has pissed away plenty of manufacturing and heavy industry the last 40 years, coal is in a long term decline that I don't think it will fully recover from and as mentioned above even the intermodal game has changed a bit from what it was even 15 or 20 years ago. That said, I don't think NS has done too bad with its New England service. I remember the 205 and 206 trains were more often than not short little affairs when they first started and they've parlayed that into 2 pairs of trains that often run with extra sections, in the last year they've added the rack trains and ethanol as well. Might still be a fraction of what CSX runs into and out of New England each day, its still more than it once was.

I admit I'm only a casual observer as many on here are, although I do take a pretty big interest in the economics and business side of the industry and try to learn as much as I can. Its going to be interesting to see how things play out over the next few years, but there's Class I railroading in the Southern Tier of NY and Northeast PA today largely because NS feels that a connection to New England/Eastern Canada is worth pursuing and investing in. IF any of that ever changes (and I'm not saying that it couldn't) then that's when Id start to get concerned. Just my $.02......Dave

dtravisjr wrote:

But now they bought that Sunbury line. YUP!! that might change thing again... where did 531/2 go now? yup rerouted to Sunbury... so ST is back to shelf again and useless...

Not sure I would call the Tier "useless" because an occasional coal train was rerouted off of it ......That Bow coal traffic routing has bounced back and forth over the past 30 years. Not really anything new there.

. Just my $.02......Dave

well for now...

Someone said it was because of shorter route and since that NS own Sunbury line. Now NS can run 531/2 on it without hassle of CP's cost and crews. ST is good route for Northeast like 205/206 and 22/23... and I am hoping that WOULD GROW... As of now.. no due to recession... When businesses turn around and goes up again. I am hoping that PRR line traffic is too busy that NS would send some over ST... But will we see that traffic being so busy again like during CR days???

oibu wrote:Last I checked, it's not the State's bridge to do or not do ANYTHING with, so anything the state did or did not want to give NS money for is completely irrelevant. That was my point, that NS is only doing anything on the bridge at all because the state threw them some free coin. Wouldn't we all like free handouts for everything?

Let me repeat, the state HAD to be involved because the current ROW and future ROW run through a state park. At the same time, NS pays taxes to the state of NY. Fuel taxes are part, but not all, of the funding mechanism for state highways. Trucking companies get a return on their fuel taxes via highway spending. NS (and other RRs) should likewise get a return on thier fuel tax dollars. Oh BTW, the majority of highway funding comes non-fuel taxes. Income tax, sales tax and are other tax sources are paying for highways, airports and waterways that directly compete against RR lines. Perhaps we should end the free handouts for other transportation modes before we worry about the relatively small amount of gov't funds spent on RRs.

oibu wrote: I can only speak from experience on the Chicago line that on all of my multi-day visits in recent years, the average for traffic on the Chicago line is at least 3 trains per hour. I never experienced that in CR days.

You must have had some incredible luck. I have lived in the Rochester area for nearly 25 years. I railfan here quite regularly and visit the Buiffalo area several times per year to railfan. I've also seen CSX on occasion in other locations. Based on my photos... which are time/date stamped... and occasional notes, the Water Level Route currently averages a little over 2 trains per hour, excluding Amtrak. That translates to roughly 50-55 trains per day.

Now, you won't just have to word of yours truly or sd80mac. I am actually getting a list of CR symbols from the late '90s and a list of current CSX symbols from a trustworthy source. I'll open a new thread when I get that information, because it's not really relevant to a discussion about the Tier.

Getting back to the Tier, NS is running more daily symbols on it now that in 2000. Among other things, 22K/23K and 28N/287 were added to the Tier within the past 10 years. The only daily symbols lost were 38T/39T ...with that traffic being added to other trains.

I have witnessed construction blackouts on the Tier firsthand, including a daylong project in Hornell during August of 2010. Traffic is disrupted, despite your claims to the contrary. BTW, the traffic is fun to watch when the track reopens.

sd80mac wrote:Someone said it was because of shorter route and since that NS own Sunbury line. Now NS can run 531/2 on it without hassle of CP's cost and crews.

Moving 532/533 off the Tier also ended a run-round on the Lake Erie District in Ashtabula, which could also potentially tie-up CSX for longer trains.

Matt Langworthy wrote:[I am actually getting a list of CR symbols from the late '90s.

you were talking to me...

sd80mac wrote:

Matt Langworthy wrote:[I am actually getting a list of CR symbols from the late '90s.

you were talking to me...

Excellent! Thanks for the help! And now I can connect another name from the FB world to this one.

SecaucusJunction wrote:Conrail couldn't run any NJ stack traffic over PRR because the bridge on the Lehigh Line wasn't cleared for stacks until well after NS took over. Therefore, just about anything with port stacks took the NYC routing, aside from the one lonely train that went out the Southern Tier to appease the state. Also remember that the Panama Canal stole a whole lot of land bridge traffic away from the railroads around the time of the takeover. Containers from China to Europe were bridged from LA to NJ and then put back on a boat across the Atlantic. That traffic is non-existant now. There used to be unit SeaLand trains, unit APL trains, unit K Line trains all to port, so if there was extra traffic, that's probably where it came from. Very little traffic from port NYNJ ever sees the rails, and only recently from their new on dock rail has it made even a slight comeback. But what the Panama Canal taketh away, it also gives back. With the expansion, traffic patterns could again change and the glory of international stacks might make a big comeback in the eastern third of the United States at the expense of the west.

No. I did saw that we lost few of Chicago line's and ST's trains to PRR. TV78/79 were 2 of them. I cant recall 2 or4 more pairs of tv and 1 or 2 pairs of ML. As typically, I was pretty upset that we lose these to PRR. Evenually I saw these same 78/79 ran through PRR lines later on...

Sealand were sold to another trucking company when CSX and NS bought CR. Then CSX sold Sealand. I don't know what happened to APL and K line.. Ofc I guess CEO of these 2 shippings got greedy like CR CEO and walked away with millions of dollars in their pockets.

I thought that Panama canal is still ongoing project. I have not heard that it's completed and opened for super size ships. Has it completed yet? I still cannot see how that ships can get around and go through Panama and reach NYC faster than ship unload at LA port, Seattle port or Vanocour (sp) port and send them across North American in 4-5 days. I think shipping through Panama takes extra 7 or 8 days to reach NYC/Baltimore?

For NS NKP line west of Buffalo, I forget 4 more trains....

Well known 2 trains that I always looked for while I was there... NYSW trains...

also there were 2 trains running on trackage rights but I cant remember which one. but I think it's CP. These 4 trains were gone on Day One.

Actually the NYSW trains were gone even before day 1. They were shifted over to a Conrail routing west of Buffalo until they were cancelled on day 1.

The Panama canal is now scheduled to be completed on June 26. Because of the Port Authority's debacle with the Bayonne Bridge, you won't see meaningful changes in shipping patterns to the US this year. Shipping time has always been a bit faster via the West Coast ports, but not by a whole lot and mostly dependent on how congested the LA ports are. It is usually 12 days from Asia to LA, another 2-4 days (if you're lucky) for ship unloading and to get on a train. It usually takes closer to 8-10 days to get across the country to the East Coast. A shipment from Asia to NY is about 28 days via an all water routing. The reason most shipments to the immediate coast go via Panama Canal is the vast difference in price. When the canal is enlarged, the price difference should be even greater. European shipments from Asia now either go via the Panama or Suez canals as opposed to going across the US.

Speaking of disruptions on the Tier, a derailment on the PanAm (in Charlemont, MA) has definitely affected traffic over the past few days. Does anyone know if the derailment has been cleared and repaired yet?

Comments on the Pan Am forum would imply the line opened this morning.