LIRR electrification

When it was electrifying, why didn't it use catenary so it would be compatible with the PRR's other ops?

The LIRR was electrified before any PRR routes. There wasn't even catenary in Penn Station until the 1930s, I believe.

Penn Station was built with 3rd rail in the beginning,as LIRR was a ward under PRR ownership,that's how
the 3rd rail extended eastward on the island.
The 11kv 25hz overhead wire came into Penn Station a few years later,as did the NY Connecting RR,a joint NH/PRR project

Backshophoss wrote:Penn Station was built with 3rd rail in the beginning,as LIRR was a ward under PRR ownership,that's how
the 3rd rail extended eastward on the island.
The 11kv 25hz overhead wire came into Penn Station a few years later,as did the NY Connecting RR,a joint NH/PRR project

I see...
Then it was too late to change?

The LIRR's first electrification was of the Rockaway Beach Division in 1906. It closely followed the electrification of their trolley line in Rockaway. Before installing third rail on the Long Island and in Penn Station, tests were carried out on what's now the Garden Mitchell Secondary. Small sections of overhead wire, overhead third rail, and traditional third rail were installed and tested. This is pretty well documented by Art Huneke on his Web Site.

Third rail was chosen over high voltage catenary for several benefits. It has a lower initial cost, rolling stock is less expensive and less complex, and its limitations generally are negligible for short suburban service. More substations are required, but some of the expense is saved in lower power transmission costs. Third rail transmission was also easily compatible with the subway's third rail system through the use of convertible shoes. The Rockaway Division saw joint service with the subway, more was planned, and the first LIRR electrics (MP-41's) were fully compatible, equipped with the special shoe arrangement.

When Penn Station first opened, the DD1 electric locomotives were also equipped with small pantographs. Over long sections of third rail gaps, as in "A" Interlocking, overhead third rail carried the engines over the gaps. These were removed when the catenary was installed in the 1930's. Overhead catenary is more efficient for high speed, long haul service, and was the choice of the PRR when electrification was installed on its main tracks.

Kelly, the LIRR experimented with an overhead third rail? I didn't know that such a thing existed. Are there any railroads that adopted this type of propulsion system?

It was installed on the B & O mainline in Baltimore until 1896. It was also used on a number of Brooklyn freight short lines and in the Steinway Tunnel.

Overhead third rail is still used in parts of Korea. It is in place in many parts of Grand Central Terminal, though it is not in use, as no all-electric engines are used there any longer.

It was used in grand central for quite some time to bridge the long third rail gaps on locomotives

http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/early- ... D1-AA1.jpg
"From Ron Ziel's: Electric Heritage of the Long Island Rail Road 1905-1975"

Photo of the test on the Central Extension.

Here's a rather rare view of the convertible third rail shoe on the MP-41's -- the first electric MU cars. Using a special transition rail arrangement, the show would convert from the LIRR's standard to the IRT subway standard.

The board won't let me post the photo, so you can use the link while it works:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTQ1N1gxNjAw/ ... .JPG?rt=nc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kelly&Kelly wrote:Here's a rather rare view of the convertible third rail shoe on the MP-41's -- the first electric MU cars. Using a special transition rail arrangement, the show would convert from the LIRR's standard to the IRT subway standard. The board won't let me post the photo, so you can use the link while it works.."

Why can't you post the photo?

Believe Photo is on sale at E-Bay.

Backshophoss wrote:Penn Station was built with 3rd rail in the beginning,as LIRR was a ward under PRR ownership,that's how
the 3rd rail extended eastward on the island.
The 11kv 25hz overhead wire came into Penn Station a few years later,as did the NY Connecting RR,a joint NH/PRR project

As a historical note, when the Pennsy built Penn Station, they needed a way to actually get a train, pulled by a steam locomotive, under the Hudson River. The solution was to change locomotives at Manhattan Transfer, a station between today's Newark Penn and New York Penn. The route from Manhattan Transfer to Penn Station and thence to Sunnyside Yard was electrified by third rail, as stated elsewhere, with the 3rd rail on the generally on the ground but overhead where a ground based rail was impossible to lay (through interlockings). New York Central likewise used 3rd rail, mounted on ties or overhead, to get from Croton to Grand Central.

New Haven and Pennsy jointly built the NY Connecting RR, not electrified, in 1917, so the couple of NH trains into Penn had to do something, but I'm not sure what -- probably a Pennsy DD1 (NH used EP-1s at the time into Grand Central with dual AC and DC catenary). Regardless of what NYC and Pennsy did with 3rd rail, NH electrified with AC through catenary. The Pennsy followed, albeit without the triangular support structure.

Before AC electrification existed into Penn Station, NY the trains enroute from the New Haven Railroad changed power at old Cabin 2 which was in the area of Sunnyside Junction. Trains from New Haven and beyond ran from New Haven with steam power until enough electric power was available then with AC electric motors. At Cabin 2 the New Haven power came off and ran light back to Oak Point or in the case of steam probably Harlem River while Pennsylvania DD-1's took the train into Penn Station, NY. These trains operated with Pennsylvania engine crews between Penn Station and Cabin 2 while the New Haven conductor and train crew ran through to Penn Station. After the AC electrification was completed into Penn Station the New Haven AC electric motors ran through to Penn Station with New Haven engine crews and laid over for years on track 5 in A yard. It was only after or around the time that Amtrak took over that the GG-1's started running through between Washington and New Haven.
Noel Weaver

docsteve wrote:

Backshophoss wrote:Penn Station was built with 3rd rail in the beginning,as LIRR was a ward under PRR ownership,that's how
the 3rd rail extended eastward on the island.
The 11kv 25hz overhead wire came into Penn Station a few years later,as did the NY Connecting RR,a joint NH/PRR project

As a historical note, when the Pennsy built Penn Station, they needed a way to actually get a train, pulled by a steam locomotive, under the Hudson River. The solution was to change locomotives at Manhattan Transfer, a station between today's Newark Penn and New York Penn. The route from Manhattan Transfer to Penn Station and thence to Sunnyside Yard was electrified by third rail, as stated elsewhere, with the 3rd rail on the generally on the ground but overhead where a ground based rail was impossible to lay (through interlockings). New York Central likewise used 3rd rail, mounted on ties or overhead, to get from Croton to Grand Central.

New Haven and Pennsy jointly built the NY Connecting RR, not electrified, in 1917, so the couple of NH trains into Penn had to do something, but I'm not sure what -- probably a Pennsy DD1 (NH used EP-1s at the time into Grand Central with dual AC and DC catenary). Regardless of what NYC and Pennsy did with 3rd rail, NH electrified with AC through catenary. The Pennsy followed, albeit without the triangular support structure.

There was no dual AC and DC catenary. There was and is no catenary in Grand Central. New Haven engines used the NH's AC catenary to Woodlawn Junction, and used the New York Central's underruning DC third rail thereafter.