Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

That's actually an interesting proposition. Determine how much equipment is available and how much equipment can be stored at each end to run peak direction only and have PATH run opposite on both of their tracks to take up the slack. In order to not totally screw the existing PATH customer base you would in effect have to institute reverse-peak discounts. It would be a logistical nightmare for the casual traveler to figure out but maybe that's the kind of nightmare necessary to get the powers that be to act decisively and build what is truly needed to fix the problem.

andegold wrote:That's actually an interesting proposition. Determine how much equipment is available and how much equipment can be stored at each end to run peak direction only and have PATH run opposite on both of their tracks to take up the slack. In order to not totally screw the existing PATH customer base you would in effect have to institute reverse-peak discounts. It would be a logistical nightmare for the casual traveler to figure out but maybe that's the kind of nightmare necessary to get the powers that be to act decisively and build what is truly needed to fix the problem.

Indeed. (emphasis mine)

That might actually be the way to go. NJT gets to keep the NEC expresses, but the NJCL, RVL, Gladstone, Morristown, and MBL have to either couple together at NWK or go to HOB. Amtrak can send its Acelas through (NB in the morning, SB at night), but there'd be fewer and longer Regionals. And, anyone going the opposite direction? Sorry, folks, PATH to Hoboken and Newark is thataway.

Storage in SSYD would be a problem, of course, with both Amtrak and NJT trying to squeeze into the inn. Perhaps NJT could make a deal to borrow some of LIRR's storage space at NYP while this disaster went down. On the other end, Amtrak has the remains of Hunter, Waverly, and Linden for daytime storage, while NJT has Kearny/MMC.

I'm not saying that New York would weather a tunnel closure well, but it might be able to make do for a while.

When thinking about what a closure of the Tunnels (in Gateway's absence) might look like, it may be instructive to look at how the LD's are being configured in the wake of the north-of-Philly Frankford Junction crash:

Paul Worley, director of [North Carolina's] Department of Transportation's Rail Division, released a statement saying service on the Carolinian and Palmetto trains will run to Philadelphia with no alternate transportation between there and New York City. The Silver Meteor, Crescent and Silver Star will turn around at Union Station in Washington, D.C., he said.

Note that the "corridor" trains (Carolinian & Palmetto) are running to PHL, while the sleeper trains are turning back at WAS. Part of it is likely simply that WAS is in the habit of turning sleepers and PHL isn't, and part may be a desire to maximize seats-per-trainset in the slots that are operating.

Is there a separate Portal Bridges thread, or is that enough integrated into "Gateway" to discuss here? If here, will that project involve any curve-straightening (such as immediately on the NYP side of NWK...seems like there's a lot of derelict industrial stuff through which a straighter NEC could be run)

Arlington wrote:Is there a separate Portal Bridges thread, or is that enough integrated into "Gateway" to discuss here? If here, will that project involve any curve-straightening (such as immediately on the NYP side of NWK...seems like there's a lot of derelict industrial stuff through which a straighter NEC could be run)

From what I have read, Gateway is one in a series of projects aimed to modernize and SOGR the northeast corridor between trenton and just past new york city. This area is the most heavily traveled i'm guessing, with a large NJT commuter operation presence. There is another thread on portal bridge.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... tal+bridge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Okay, so Amtrak is having trouble getting Uncle Sam to pay for new tunnels. Remind me what the cost of this project is? If they had to borrow all the money at 3% for 30 years, and assuming 2015 passenger levels going through the new tunnels only, what is the cost per seat?

Mr Google says the monthly nut is $4.22 per thousand (.00422 of the principal per month).
Construction costs supposedly $16,000,000,000. - not counting design, total cost $20B. (That's about the same as Boston's screwed-up "Big-Dig" I-93 4-lane highway underground project, opened 2002)
Penn Station apparently has 650,000 passengers/day. Assume they all go through the North River Tunnels (which isn't true).

(.00422/mo) * (12mo/365days) * $16B = $2,219,835.61644 / day

$2,212,835.61644 / 650,000 = $3.42 per passenger per day.

So, increasing ticket prices by $3.42 should pay for new tunnels. These numbers are probably off and understate the cost. But if this is close to being correct, then just borrow the money from the treasury and get started.

I am with you in spirit. I'd say that the "real" way to get there would be to ask
$1 from every NJT customer (and assume 5% per year growth in NJT ridership)*
$10 from every non-Acela (NER+LD) customer (and assume 5% per year growth in ridership)
$20 from every "southside" Acela II customer (and assume a near-immediate 100% growth in "Express" southside ridership)

If that adds up (I'd want more precise per-operator / per-southside numbers), an infrastructure bank should fund it.

*If NJT had the slots, I'm sure they'd find a way to power a rapid expansion into NYP

The New York Times makes the case for the gateway tunnels.

Passenger traffic under the Hudson River — and by association a hefty chunk of the nation’s economy — relies on a couple of broken-down, century-old tunnels strained to capacity. They serve Amtrak and New Jersey Transit trains that at rush hour have come to resemble the Marx Brothers’ stateroom scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZvugebaT6Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/arts/ ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jstolberg wrote:The New York Times makes the case for the gateway tunnels.

Passenger traffic under the Hudson River — and by association a hefty chunk of the nation’s economy — relies on a couple of broken-down, century-old tunnels strained to capacity. They serve Amtrak and New Jersey Transit trains that at rush hour have come to resemble the Marx Brothers’ stateroom scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZvugebaT6Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/arts/ ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well written article and makes a good case. But commenting on Grand Central access seems a little uninformed and ambitious. Unfortunately the famed Alt-G was scuttled because unless the new tunnels are so deep they're scraping the roof of hell, they're going to go straight into a massive unmovable water tunnel. Unfortunately a "Philly Commuter Connection" sort of thing for NYC's railroads is a virtual impossibility.

Amtrak spending more money on prepping for the tunnels.

Amtrak Chairman Anthony Coscia told the Crain's editorial board Wednesday:

"We're taking precious resources and spending it on a project we don't have all the money to build," he said. "It's either a very silly decision or a very critical one."

Hawaiitiki wrote:

jstolberg wrote:The New York Times makes the case for the gateway tunnels.

Passenger traffic under the Hudson River — and by association a hefty chunk of the nation’s economy — relies on a couple of broken-down, century-old tunnels strained to capacity. They serve Amtrak and New Jersey Transit trains that at rush hour have come to resemble the Marx Brothers’ stateroom scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZvugebaT6Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/arts/ ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well written article and makes a good case. But commenting on Grand Central access seems a little uninformed and ambitious. Unfortunately the famed Alt-G was scuttled because unless the new tunnels are so deep they're scraping the roof of hell, they're going to go straight into a massive unmovable water tunnel. Unfortunately a "Philly Commuter Connection" sort of thing for NYC's railroads is a virtual impossibility.

I'm not sure you are correct about Alt-G. I think the issue with that was first, getting it around the Lexington Ave subway and second that the MTA had it's own plans for Grand Central expansion and didn't want anything to do with it. Alt G was never advanced so it wasn't really studied as part of the final plan.

The water tunnel came into play with the final ARC plan since the deep cavern placement would have had any extension from there blocked by the water tunnel. (I think.) There may have also been some concern on the part of the city with construction in the vicinity of the water tunnel but since they have a part of water tunnel three open now that might be less of an issue.

I could be wrong but might have some of the documents on my computer at home so will check over the weekend.

Greg Moore wrote:Amtrak spending more money on prepping for the tunnels.
Amtrak Chairman Anthony Coscia told the Crain's editorial board Wednesday:

"We're taking precious resources and spending it on a project we don't have all the money to build," he said. "It's either a very silly decision or a very critical one."

I wish they'd broken out the timing and items that added up to "$300m" (is that all the NYP tunnel box since Sandy?) and I wish they'd said how much of its own money is going to be spend on when/where on planning (taken from the operating/maintenance budget to fund this capital project, presumably)

Also, what's happening (if anything) on the NJ Palisades side of things? Is it all engineering of the NJ approaches or have actual spades of Jersey dirt been turned?

The Tunnel Box was a "Fast track" design/build to preserve access for 2 new bores,due to "Air Rights" development
over LIRR's West side yard.
Other than what was done on the New Jersey side for the Abandoned tunnel project stopped by Gov Christe,
NOTHING!

With VP Joe Biden making a joint announcement with NY Gov Cuomo on Monday July 27 2015 at 2:30pm, is the betting here that is an airport thing or a Gateway thing?

These two have already pledged to do more for LGA and JFK, but since both these airports are PANYNJ facilities, they technically were snubbing NJ Gov Christie as much as they would be if the announcement turns out to be a Gateway thing.

And another headline.

Transportation secretary calls Hudson tunnel inaction ‘almost criminal’