• NEC Future: HSR "High Line", FRA, Amtrak Infrastructure Plan

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
They want to do fixed replacement spans for Pelham, Portal, Susquehanna, and Bush. Which would eliminate all movable bridges south of Greenwich, CT except for Dock Bridge in Newark (which opens like once every 5 years). All of them are 2-track.

Portal is the only one they're pinned in at doing only a 2-track replacement, because of the limitations of the east-side approach through the swamp. "Portal South", constructed ~1000 ft. downstream, would be an identical-design capacity expander when they need it (originally proposed for ARC, but won't be a thing they need until sometime post- Gateway when we start talking 2040 superduper HSR. The other 3 replacement spans they are facing real dilemmas: ideally they'd like 3-4 tracks on the fixed replacements, but will there be any money for it? Clearly they've got only 1 shot for each replacement to get their idealized track capacity, so it's a doubly difficult advocacy point: not only fund a replacement before the thing kicks, but fund one that serves >50-year traffic needs.



There's also the CT River Bridge, which is replacing that low bascule with a high bascule, with twin draw one for each track for redundancy's sake, that rarely has to open. That got approval for expedited design and EIS a couple years ago, but I don't know what the design completion stands at today or whether much of the construction cost has been appropriated. That solves the single biggest bottleneck on the Shoreline and is what will allow the full Shore Line East commuter rail schedule to get extended to New London (or, later, Westerly) instead of having to truncate most of the time at Old Saybrook. Though the relative media silence on that one's progress has to do more with final funding being in less doubt...USDOT gave it the special EIS waivers to move it near the front of the line, which telegraphs a preference for moving it near the funding/scheduling front of the line.



At least with the other 3 New Haven Line spans they're already quad-track and locked into place by the surrounding density that they must be 1:1 movables-for-movables replacements like Walk. They can't be made fixed even if they wanted, can't be widened even if they wanted. They can only be replaced by better movable spans, such as Walk's replacement being a lift with 2 separate 2-track lifts. Lifts being much faster, stronger, more reliable, and easier to maintain than swings or bascules in *most* situations where maritime traffic doesn't have to be unlimited-height. Which is why Thames River got retrofitted with a lift replacing its former bascule. And in Walk's specific case, since the maritime traffic on Norwalk River is almost entirely short commercial barges it can open adjustable-height and close even faster. So you'll probably see Cos Cob, Saga, and Devon get more or less the same design--and potential for expedited engineering on those designs.

The only issue with those are CDOT and the Feds doing penance for too many years of deferred maintenance and utter lack of planning here. There's no 'existential' questions like there is from Pelham-south on spending the extra $$$ to raise the track approaches so a movable can get replaced by a fixed, or spending the extra $$$ to set capacity needs for life. Just "eat your damn peas". What makes it hard is that having 4 in equally bad condition in 1 state on 1 mission-critical commuter rail line in only 2 Congressional districts (Jim Hines and Rosa DeLauro) doesn't jibe well with the way fed spending gets allotted. Especially with the CT River replacement (Joe Courtney's district) already being a funding recipient. It's much easier to spread funding around several states at once than around several bridges in 1 state at once. So while Portal (NJ) and Walk (CT) are rightfully at the top of the list, it does mean Cos Cob / Saga / Devon (CT)--despite being much more acute concerns--might have to get slotted between Susquehanna (MD) or considerably lesser-concern Pelham (NY) just because spreading the love through different Congressional districts is the way infrastructure funding works. And that Susquehanna / Bush (MD) will be in direct competition with each other AND the fixed-span replacement Gunpowder bridge (MD) AND the B&P tunnels on the priority queue regardless of which is the "worst" (and that's probably the tunnels). So by odd quirk some of the worst-condition bridges in CT and MD may have to outlast some of the least-worst condition bridges for purposes of 'porcine equitability' in Congress.
  by Backshophoss
 
P Bay has had some rehab work done to it in the late '80's-early '90's,it was always a 2 track bridge.
P Bay is part of a wiildlife refuge,NYDEC,and NY City"s DEC will be involved
Walk is in the central part of Norwalk,it will not be an easy process to replace it,as the city has built around both approaches.
The same could be said about Devon and Peck(Bridgeport)
Cob(Cos Cob) and Saga(Westport) will be a NIMBY nighmare due to residental housing surrounding
both bridges.

The final nightmare is a lack of a Detour route if a problem happens at Walk,the former Maybrook route between
Danbury and Derby Jct is in horrid condition under HRRC ownership,and useless for passenger trains.
(for backround on that,there're threads in MN and HRRC forums)
  by Ridgefielder
 
Backshophoss wrote: Walk is in the central part of Norwalk,it will not be an easy process to replace it,as the city has built around both approaches.
The same could be said about Devon and Peck(Bridgeport)
Cob(Cos Cob) and Saga(Westport) will be a NIMBY nighmare due to residental housing surrounding
both bridges.

The final nightmare is a lack of a Detour route if a problem happens at Walk,the former Maybrook route between
Danbury and Derby Jct is in horrid condition under HRRC ownership,and useless for passenger trains.
(for backround on that,there're threads in MN and HRRC forums)
My understanding is that the WALK replacement will be done like the New London replacement- lift span replaces the bascule (or swing, in this case) span, rest of the bridge remains the same. Should be no real impact to downtown South Norwalk as I'd imagine all construction materials will be brought in by rail or water. As long as they do the same for COB and SAGA I can't imagine NIMBYism being a problem-- the neighbors of SAGA in particular probably wouldn't complain if the old diesel engines currently operating the draw get replaced by a quiet electric lift motor.

Yes, the nightmare is that there is no detour-- and that's why I could see the Feds focusing on this a bit even though it would mean, as F-line pointed out, spending a lot of money in only a couple of Congressional districts. An NEC severed between New York City and Devon would impact all of CT, RI and Eastern MA.
  by afiggatt
 
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:They want to do fixed replacement spans for Pelham, Portal, Susquehanna, and Bush. Which would eliminate all movable bridges south of Greenwich, CT except for Dock Bridge in Newark (which opens like once every 5 years). All of them are 2-track.

Portal is the only one they're pinned in at doing only a 2-track replacement, because of the limitations of the east-side approach through the swamp. "Portal South", constructed ~1000 ft. downstream, would be an identical-design capacity expander when they need it (originally proposed for ARC, but won't be a thing they need until sometime post- Gateway when we start talking 2040 superduper HSR. The other 3 replacement spans they are facing real dilemmas: ideally they'd like 3-4 tracks on the fixed replacements, but will there be any money for it? Clearly they've got only 1 shot for each replacement to get their idealized track capacity, so it's a doubly difficult advocacy point: not only fund a replacement before the thing kicks, but fund one that serves >50-year traffic needs.

There's also the CT River Bridge, which is replacing that low bascule with a high bascule, with twin draw one for each track for redundancy's sake, that rarely has to open. That got approval for expedited design and EIS a couple years ago, but I don't know what the design completion stands at today or whether much of the construction cost has been appropriated.

... And that Susquehanna / Bush (MD) will be in direct competition with each other AND the fixed-span replacement Gunpowder bridge (MD) AND the B&P tunnels on the priority queue regardless of which is the "worst" (and that's probably the tunnels). So by odd quirk some of the worst-condition bridges in CT and MD may have to outlast some of the least-worst condition bridges for purposes of 'porcine equitability' in Congress.
The NEC Future PEIS and established 30-40 year plans should provide the justification for replacing the bridges on the NYP-WAS segment with 4 track bridges or 2 two track bridge arrangements. The key is to get the goal of 4 tracks from NYP to WAS with limited 3 track segments into the official planning documents so if a politician or committee asks why are we upgrading from a 2 track bridge to a 4 track arrangement, the answer is to point to the Plan.

The draft EIS that was posted on the FRA website some months ago for the CT River Bridge calls for a replacement bridge of the same clearance and similar design as the current bridge. The study concluded that the cost and long approaches needed for a fixed height bridge there would be too expensive and would face major public opposition. The NEC Commission Five Year Capital Needs Assessment FY15-19 (31 page PDF) provides a view of the current plans and hoped for funding for the next 5 years for the NEC projects. The capital plan shows annual spending ramping up for the CT River Bridge replacement In FY17 through FY19, so those would be the prime construction years - if the money can be found.

The Susquehanna Bridge replacement is currently under study with an HSIPR grant. There is no active environmental and engineering study underway for the Bush and Gunpowder bridges, so the Susquehanna Bridge is ahead of the other 2 in the priority queue. The funding competition will be with the B&P Tunnel replacement and I suspect the tunnel replacement will get priority because the tunnel is in bad shape while the Susquehanna Bridge can wait a few years.
  by afiggatt
 
Some bridge study project website links for reference.

Susquehanna Bridge replacement study website
A public meeting was held on December 10 with updated presentation boards on the alternative analysis status. The study is downselecting the alternatives to 3 remaining alternatives all with two 2 track fixed span bridges with different alignments for 140 to 160 mph speeds. I vote for the 160 mph alternative!

Long Bridge replacement study. Has not been updated since late last year, but the replacement study landed a FY2014 TIGER planning grant so combined with Virginia funds, the study process is funded through a Final EIS and I think a Record of Decision. The alternatives are getting narrowed down to a 4 track replacement bridge with 2 tracks for passenger trains and 2 tracks for CSX.
  by Arlington
 
If you've never seen it, anyone looking at long-range HSR plans should review the alignment for the "original" I-84 (which later got designated I-384 after it was easier to build I-84 on its current alignment. It is important because it provides a relatively straight and level way to get from Hartford (out of the frame on the left) to Providence (out of the frame, on the right in the picture below), and the ROW is pretty much already in State hands. Image

I'm reviving this NEC future thread because it seems like the whole "new ROW" discussion has been stalled in recent years, with no one, clear, way of "cleaning up" the Shore Line (too curvy, too populous) or the Inland Route (owned by CSX and curvy and hilly).

With things on the NH-H-S line progressing, it seems like a pretty good trade for Amtrak to swap out New London (and its curves and bridges) for Hartford (and fast running through state forest land) as the best waypoint between New Haven and Providence.

I note that the Gov of CT has called for a full review of CT's transportation infrastructure, including toll roads and a "lock box" (to ensure that gas taxes, etc., can only be spent on transport (including rail))

Any chance that as an alternative/supplement to I-95 that we get an HSR-in-median of an I-384 tollway?

And one day, we will solve the problems with the Metro North. While each "50-year" solution seems individually crazy, together, they, or some other fix is likely to make it way easier to get to Hartford.
1) Additional track on the MN or
2) The northern bypass (White Plains-Danbury/Waterbury-Hartford)
3) The LIRR option (sound crossing from LI to New Haven)

HFD-PVD, as a highway, may prove cheaper than widening I-95 (or something you'd build as a "relief valve") before you started rebuilding I-95.
HDF-PVD, as a toll-road (allowing you to both limit it width, ensure it never bogs down, and pays for itself) would make a pretty sweet shared-cost project with a new rail line, and is just about the only place in the NEC where'd you'd get away with such a shared-cost project.
Last edited by Arlington on Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by jstolberg
 
The other missing part of such a route would be Danielson, CT to Johnston, RI.
  by Arlington
 
jstolberg wrote:The other missing part of such a route would be Danielson, CT to Johnston, RI.
Rhode Island's interests are pretty-well aligned with CTs. They don't want to see the Inland Route (through Worcester MA) developed at the expense of RI & PVD. There's also a whole lot of nothin' on the RI side of the border, with a chance to thread through the "empty back yards" parallel to US 6 (somewhere near where I-84 was supposed to go on the RI side, and perhaps also being a toll road with train-in-median.

Yes, at both the HFD and PVD ends you have to thread the line into the existing downtown areas, which involves either slowing down or paying for tunneling, but Amtrak (and both CT and RI) will do themselves a world of good if they've put Hartford-Providence at the core of the next-Gen NEC.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
FWIW...on that map CDOT-owned landbanked rail lines cross existing highways under-grade at:
-- I-384 at its end in Bolton (Manchester Secondary/ex-NYNE)
-- West end of 1970's-completed Willimantic section of US 6 expressway (ex-NYNE just west of NECR junction)
-- East end of Willimantic section of US 6 expressway (Air Line just east of NECR junction)

Therefore...if you're talking a rail piggyback on a tollway there is available ROW immediately at both ends of the Bolton-Willimantic gap. And at the west end of the Willimantic-Plainfield gap.


Now...you are NOT going to be running HSR on the Rhode Island part of this expressway through Foster, Scituate, and Johnston. Those are the tallest hills in RI it would have to climb, and the grades just aren't going to be worth the extreme expense and performance hit on rail. Drive US 6 at the state line...it is STEEP. Your hookup to Providence is going to be the ex-NYNE out of Moosup. And if the Willimantic-Plainfield segment of highway gets built you can likewise graft a ROW onto it to bypass the curvy Willimantic Secondary. The only thing it would require is a short 1-mile or so southbound jog down the P&W mainline from Plainfield to reach the ex-NYNE east to Providence. Either a junction onto the old somewhat curvy route through downtown Moosup or a cleanroomed ROW through the woods that meets the ROW east of downtown where it smooths out nicely. Any which way this is all on nice flat or gently rolling terrain while the highway route through Foster poses too prohibitive a challenge for rail because of the grades.

If an S-curve at Bolton Notch and a later S-curve at P&W in Plainfield are the only two speed kinks of note that send speeds lower than 125 MPH...that ain't too shabby. All that fresh high-speed grading bolted to the highway--plus the straighter sections of the NYNE East Hartford-Vernon and Moosup-Coventry) more than makes up for it elsewhere.
  by Arlington
 
Is it the NYNE that's now the Trestle Trail from State Line to Coventry?.

Here's hoping they did a good job of making sure the rails could come back, if that's the best way to go. (it looks like the "Washington Secondary" = NYNY?) Sure is straight-looking).
Image
  by The EGE
 
West of Coventry, the NY&NE is very straight and wide; rail+trail would be absolutely possible. East of Coventry it's much narrower and curvier, and would be difficult no matter what.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Arlington wrote:Is it the NYNE that's now the Trestle Trail from State Line to Coventry?.

Here's hoping they did a good job of making sure the rails could come back, if that's the best way to go. (it looks like the "Washington Secondary" = NYNY?) Sure is straight-looking).
Image
Correct. Washington Secondary. The only curves of any significance on that line are a 4.5 mile stretch in eastern Coventry and Warwick where it snakes along the Pawtuxet River and about 2.5 miles in Moosup, CT just east of the I-395 overpass where is winds around a few small rivers. Moosup they can probably bypass by taking a straight cut by Moosup Pond bypassing downtown (which would also bring it a lot closer to the would-be highway ROW than the old--still active--junction with the Willimantic Secondary). Warwick is too dense to straighten, but that's still incredibly few curves of any significance.

The entire line is landbanked by both states' DOT's except for a ~1 mile gap of wooded riverbank in Moosup (don't know why...it's barren of any nearby development). That's one trail that is not going to stand in the way of an Amtrak megaproject. Western RI, especially with the immense Scituate Reservoir watershed, isn't at a loss for multiple alternate routes if that comes to pass. And of course if the I-384 tollway ROW is in-play nothing gets disrupted in CT except Manchester Ctr.-Bolton Notch. And that one has the Charter Oak Greenway along the existing 384 about to be contiguously linked from the trail at Bolton Notch to Manchester...just a couple blocks' gap from the trail on the abandoned S. Manchester Branch. Some nice redundancy there to keep the trail circuit intact.



You do have to think about this in stages, however. Simply doing the 384-Willimantic build and that combo ROW immediately opens up a Hartford-New London (w/ Hartford-UConn and Hartford-casinos) commuter rail route and inland freight clearance route to Hartford. As long as it's provisioned for wire clearances and HSR grades you can start it off as diesel Class 4, 2-track and it'll get immediately robust usage. And the midsection Willimantic-Plainfield is arguably the last in priority because the Willimantic Secondary is very much active...so Plainfield-Providence is probably Big Step #2. With the highway + rail midsection Willimantic-Plainfield being the HSR cherry on top when it's showtime. By no means is this a monolithic megaproject. A megaproject for sure, but one that can be segmented into easier-to-swallow discrete chunks that still return on investment.
  by Greg Moore
 
Looks like the Susquehanna Bridge won't be replaced any earlier than 2020.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Boy, that funding backlog sure didn't get very much smaller since the last report update. :(
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