Expanded City Zone service/Paycard Entry/Crew Reduction

I love it, I hope you aren't like this to your wife, friends, or coworkers. Have a nice tall one and RELAX. Happy St. Patrick's Day

SwingMan wrote:I love it, I hope you aren't like this to your wife, friends, or coworkers. Have a nice tall one and RELAX. Happy St. Patrick's Day

He doesn't, as I'm not dumb enough to make shallow arguments with no evidence to back up my claim. You all need to learn how to argue better...you offer up weak arguments with no evidence to back your claim up and then get upset and start insulting people when they disagree with you. That nonsense might work on an internet forum, but if you try doing that in the real world with other adults, you won't make it very far at all.

Mrs. lirr42

Train2703 wrote:

SwingMan wrote:I love it, I hope you aren't like this to your wife, friends, or coworkers. Have a nice tall one and RELAX. Happy St. Patrick's Day

He doesn't, as I'm not dumb enough to make shallow arguments with no evidence to back up my claim. You all need to learn how to argue better...you offer up weak arguments with no evidence to back your claim up and then get upset and start insulting people when they disagree with you. That nonsense might work on an internet forum, but if you try doing that in the real world with other adults, you won't make it very far at all.

Mrs. lirr42

I believe you have it wrong, Mrs. 42. When men were men, we handled our own debates amongst ourselves and not involve our women in it. I guess traditional values are not practiced amongst your household. LIRR42 bamboozles us with inconsistent information that has been exploited amongst people in management and craft who participate in this forum. His anti-labor stance is conspicuous and whenever people whom work for the Long Island Railroad Company help aid in discussion, he flags our posts to the forum moderator if we aren't in unison. As someone wise here once said, the common theme with Mr. 42 is "not letting facts cloud the issue."

Slippy wrote:I believe you have it wrong, Mrs. 42. When men were men, we handled our own debates amongst ourselves and not involve our women in it. I guess traditional values are not practiced amongst your household. LIRR42 bamboozles us with inconsistent information that has been exploited amongst people in management and craft who participate in this forum. His anti-labor stance is conspicuous and whenever people whom work for the Long Island Railroad Company help aid in discussion, he flags our posts to the forum moderator if we aren't in unison. As someone wise here once said, the common theme with Mr. 42 is "not letting facts cloud the issue."

SwingMan mentioned Mrs. lirr42 first...he's the one that involved her.

As I have stated in the past, I am not anti-labor and I do not detest the railroad's individual workers. I disagree with these particular unions and the outdated and expensive contract provisions they insist on continuing (as they drive up the cost for those who use the train and everyone who works in New York State), as well as the railroad itself for not doing more to try and crack down on them, but not the particular workers. The majority of railroad employees I have interacted with are kind and considerate (though there are some that are not).

I have also said this before, but I have a vested interest in the railroad's financial and operational solvency. And so does everyone who works for the LIRR, so does everyone who lives on Long Island, and so does everyone who lives in New York State. I like the railroad, which is why I want to see the railroad improve. If things keep up at the current pace, with costs (particularly labor costs, but also capital construction costs. which are just as bad) steadily rising, and passenger satisfaction dropping (with steadily increasing fares, steadily decreasing reliability, and the railroad demonstrating downward trends in communication and respect for its passengers in general), it will not be long before the railroad's passenger base begins to erode, and the MTA's deficit will only increase.

Someone said on here recently (and it's been said on here and elsewhere many times before) that "railroads are not supposed to be profitable." And that couldn't be more untrue. It is true that this particular railroad is not profitable, and we consider that acceptable--for now--but there may come a time, be it during the next big economic slump or sooner, that the powers at be decide that absorbing the railroad's financial losses is no longer going to be acceptable. That day is coming, be it in a few years or a few decades, but it's coming. I'd like to see the railroad in a good enough state when that comes so it doesn't go out of business (which can happen, don't think it can't). If half of Long Island's population has sworn off the LIRR and the unions will hold them hostage when they need to cut costs, the ship will sink very quickly.

I don't recall any occasions where I have personally insulted or engaged in ad hominem attacks towards a member of this forum or any particular person, unlike some of the other members on here. If you believe I have, point me to a specific quote from a specific post, and if that's the case, I'll apologize. Otherwise, don't accuse me of personally attacking other people. On the other hand, several members of this forum have personally insulted me, including SwingDog accusing me of insulting other people based on their race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, disability. I don't report posts that disagree with me...posts like SwingMan's above that are insulting or way off-topic are the only ones I personally have reported. And even then, you don't have to worry much, the moderators rarely do anything with them anyways (I guess my reports keep getting lost due to "server issues").

An attack on unions is deemed an attack on labor, LIRR42. While I serve in the ranks of management, I too came up as an agreement employee. We extensively discussed about this when the contract was being settled with most LIRR unions last year, which you had plentiful involvement in. Leave the anti-union and disability talk to the Editorial Board and Alfonso Castillo of Newsday. Long Island Tool eloquently addressed the contract issue and the Disability story with us.

You mentioned the MTA Capital program. Take it from someone on the inside who has had extensive exposure - that is a program that will boggle your mind. I will not get into specifics but we still award contracts to outside vendors/contractors whom I know have a history of cost overages or just doing shoddy work. Maybe you should consider channeling your energy to researching that debacle.

Let's also agree that the LIRR has and will continue to have a monopoly on mass transit. As long as the operation is subsidized and under the influence politics, it will continue to operate as a non profitable entity. You can disagree all you want, but ever since the MTA took over that has been status quo.

Gentlemen and Lady, please everyone calm down. This conversation was already flagged for going off topic. Can we please attempt to stay in the discussion topic and be respective of everyone's ideas. I don't want to have to lock the thread.

Slippy wrote:Leave the anti-union and disability talk to the Editorial Board and Alfonso Castillo of Newsday. Long Island Tool eloquently addressed the contract issue and the Disability story with us.

The outdated contract provisions and things like the Disability scams have cost, and continue to cost, the fare paying passengers incomprehensible sums of money, and they go hand in hand with the discussion of anything related to the railroad. Heck, even this month it was announced that Congress was probing the RRB because it was determined that there is a risk of the same thing happen again.

Slippy wrote:You mentioned the MTA Capital program. Take it from someone on the inside who has had extensive exposure - that is a program that will boggle your mind. I will not get into specifics but we still award contracts to outside vendors/contractors whom I know have a history of cost overages or just doing shoddy work. Maybe you should consider channeling your energy to researching that debacle.

As I said back over the summer, by all means, start that discussion. I'd love to hear of some examples. But at this moment, in a thread about crew reductions, we're talking, although somewhat tangentially, about waste in labor. As I've said before, just because there's more waste elsewhere doesn't give the LIRR or labor a pass on all of the waste in that department. The judge isn't going to let you off the hook for robbery just because the next guy is on trail for murder.

Slippy wrote:Let's also agree that the LIRR has and will continue to have a monopoly on mass transit. As long as the operation is subsidized and under the influence politics, it will continue to operate as a non profitable entity. You can disagree all you want, but ever since the MTA took over that has been status quo.

I agree they'll have a partial monopoly on things, at least for the next few years, but don't get tricked into thinking it will last forever. There are already motorcoach companies that bring people from Long Island into the city (Hampton Jitney, 7Bus, Go Bus), and they are gaining riders each month. Hampton Jitney already has a hold on the Hamptons market, especially during the off-peak periods after persistent issues on the Montauk Branch have driven riders off. It's not going to be instantaneous, but if service continues to decline, people will reconsider how they commute.

The state's support of the MTA is also not permanent, and can end at any time. It's unlikely in the short term, but our current governor isn't incredibly fond of funding transit. Imagine a recession even worst than the last, and a governor that doesn't like transit as much or less than our current governor and the MTA can be in some pretty deep water. I think overcrowded trains wouldn't be a concern for the LIRR if they announced a 127% fare increase and the cost of taking the train more than doubled.

As the saying goes, "nothing lasts forever."

It just seems to me if you gain an understanding of what an operation like the LIRR returns to Nassau and Suffolk Counties in terms of increased property value which translates into increased property tax receipts you would understand why New York State has shown unwavering support.

Many years ago on a Sunday night radio talk show Mayor Abraham Beame was discussing the MTA and whether or not it was favoring the commuter railroads over New York City Transit. To my surprise Beame answered that the commuter service was really vital to the economic health of New York City. Why? Beame said that when he was city comptroller in the early 1970s New York City was troubled by major corporations leaving the city for suburban locations. Beame said, and I'm paraphrasing, "We had private conferences with a group of the CEOs. We asked them, 'What can we do to keep you in Manhattan?' All the top guys lived in the suburbs and the first thing they said was, 'Fix the Long Island Rail Road, fix the Penn Central commuter lines.'" Beame said that was when he realized that the commuter lines had to be the city's first priority and he said you can look at the record and see, that was what MTA -- with limited resources -- tried to fix first. Because without the corporations in Manhattan the city doesn't work.

Example, when David Paterson was Governor he said that there was a huge outcry against the enormous bonuses Wall Street was paying people at that time. Paterson said he loved it. Why? Patterson said, and I quote, "I could run the entire state for ninety days just from the tax revenue the state garnered from those bonuses."

lirr42 left out an important fact that contributes to the high cost of fares on the LIRR. The former LIRR president who was fired from her position, is receiving full compensation and benefits.

So hopefully by now tempers have simmered and we can be civil again. I'd like to bring this topic back to light and see if we can get any further discussion strictly on whether or not there is the physical capacity on the road for this to get done. Fare payment method (turnstile vs POP) and crew reduction are essential for the sake of cost, but they are moot if there isn't enough space for the trains to run.