Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, FL9AC, Jeff Smith

  by Backshophoss
 
Any kind of "Pop up" barrier would fail in the Salt/Sand/Dirt/Debris enviorment of Westchester Co.,and there's also the chance that
the barrier wont retract or lower due to mech reasons after the train clears the crossing. I remember seeing some form of a "Dropped Barrier"
gate installed in Il on the (former B&O,SSW{SP})UP line that Amtrak uses,that follows I-55 from Bloomington to Springfield.
The winters in the midwest is known to as bad or worse then winters in the northeast.
  by alewifebp
 
As we all know, it is more education that will make this problem better, not better grade crossing protection. That's not to say that many can't be improved greatly, this one in particular. But that old saying about if you build a better mouse trap, the world just produces better idiots to break it comes to mind.

Some of these solutions like pop up barriers and various sensors just become too complex. This is another, unfunded I might add, maintenance sink that the railroads will have to bear. And when one of these pop up barriers fail and pop up when a car is passing over even when a train was not coming, that will be the end of them. Or just like this accident was the combination of many million to one factors, you have to think of a pop up barrier propelling a car in the tracks in front of a train in an equally unlikely set of circumstances.
  by ACeInTheHole
 
Yeah that was a dumn
B one on my end forget I even sakd that.. Will give a more thought out response later when i have more time
  by dt_rt40
 
"As we all know, it is more education that will make this problem better, not better grade crossing protection."

Kind of the way Nancy's "Just Say No" campaign ended the horrible scourge of illicit drug abuse, once and for all?
  by Watchman318
 
I agree that education alone won't do it, but all "Three E's" are needed. A little education on why the law says motorists should stop no closer than fifteen feet from the near rail might get people to comply better.
"If it won't fit, don't commit" needs to be repeated until it sinks in, at least into the minds of those who'll accept the lesson.

Maybe anyone who doesn't take the education to heart will get a traffic ticket, and not a coupler slammed through the side of their vehicle.
  by DutchRailnut
 
Ok next thing to blame : https://autos.yahoo.com/news/unfamiliar ... 00386.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and its believable as both Schumer and Blumenthal have same gear lever, they see Camera and go wrong way........
  by justalurker66
 
DutchRailnut wrote:Ok next thing to blame : https://autos.yahoo.com/news/unfamiliar ... 00386.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"There’s nothing inherently wrong with new technology for shifters—so long as it is intuitive," says Fisher. "You shouldn't need a lesson on how to shift your car into gear. The same goes for anyone who drives your car, like family or friends. Controls need to be designed so that the driver can easily do the right thing in a panic situation."


Human factors...
  by BandA
 
I don't think we can assume anymore, just because of gates, flashing lights and loud horns that the crossing is clear. Perhaps a car stalls in the crossing.

Agree bollards & steel barriers are a Bad Idea outside HSR. Just watched a BBC youtube video about bollards malfunctioning and tripping/knocking over pedestrians.

Tech solutions: If the gates go down but not all the way, the train gets a stop signal. Induction loops detect the metal mass of any cars. Those echolocation sensors mentioned above, too. Cameras snap video of anybody in the crossing and they automatically get a ticket. Any issues and the train has to be prepared to stop before the crossing. And lasers, lots of fricken' lasers! :-D

Add that rising jersey barrier thing, but make it only slightly higher than the third rail, to protect the rail not flip a vehicle. Extend the 3rd rail with non-metalic or unpowered collapsable end. Sensors in the extension & jersey barrier, if struck or knocked to the side cuts power to the 3rd rail before the obstruction can reach it.

Big sign with the RR emergency number, crossing ID. Pave crossing a few feet wider than approaching roads.
  by FL9AC
 
Natural selection is the answer...can't fix stupid just thin the herd. If everyone paid more attention and dusted off that common sense....this stuff wouldn't happen but with smart devices and technology making life easier, it's also making people stupid. Crossings have been the same design basically for a long time...why must they be redesigned?
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Infiniti is presently airing ads for its high end Sedan, which depict a driver with his mind everywhere but where it should be. The ad then shows off the Q 50 lane change warnings and collision avoidance systems.

While who am I to pass judgment on Ms. Brody's attentiveness at the time of the incident, this ad suggests that "so your mind is elsewhere; that's OK".

Otherwise, adding to this off topic posting, here is an interesting historical article from Today's Times regarding X-ings within the five Boroughs of New York City:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/nyreg ... -york.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fair use:
New Yorkers may not think railroad grade crossings have anything to do with them, but the city owes its immensely popular High Line to a campaign that began more than a century ago against the carnage caused by a street-level freight line.

In an era of bluntly descriptive place names — Hell’s Kitchen, the Tenderloin, the Gashouse District — 11th Avenue had the bluntest name of all: Death Avenue.

Down that avenue came the tracks of the New York Central Railroad. And down those tracks came freight trains bearing millions of pounds of necessities like coal, butter, eggs, cheese and dressed beef and poultry, bound for Lower Manhattan.

Across those tracks traveled the commerce of a port city, heading to and from the Hudson River piers. And around the tracks, poor children came to play, to gawk and to steal anything that might happen to fall off the box cars and hopper cars rattling by.

The result of all this crisscrossing traffic — this perpetual duel between horses, urchins and steel wheels — was predictable. The League to End Death Avenue reckoned in 1910 that, over the years, 548 people had been killed and 1,574 injured on 11th Avenue.
  by EDM5970
 
Some of BandA's technical suggestions would mean that the railroad has to operate at restricted speed for much of it's length. Sensors on gates and inductive automobile sensors in the road would have to send a signal to a train quite a distance away to have it stop in time, while running at the present MAS. The same thing holds true for sending a signal to the new PTC system that is on it's way. Trains do not stop on a dime!
  by Tommy Meehan
 
The result of all this crisscrossing traffic — this perpetual duel between horses, urchins and steel wheels — was predictable. The League to End Death Avenue reckoned in 1910 that, over the years, 548 people had been killed and 1,574 injured on 11th Avenue.
Which was probably also greatly exaggerated. Before the tracks were lowered Park Avenue was also called Death Avenue in the newspapers of the day. If the Times researched their own news archives they would've discovered the figures were disputed, when more accurate figures were compiled by the city deaths "fell" to zero in many years and it was generally agreed more New Yorkers were killed each year by streetcars on Third Avenue.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
FL9AC wrote:Natural selection is the answer...can't fix stupid just thin the herd. If everyone paid more attention and dusted off that common sense....this stuff wouldn't happen but with smart devices and technology making life easier, it's also making people stupid. Crossings have been the same design basically for a long time...why must they be redesigned?
Yeah. There's no adjustment that can be made for the stupidity that's affected all of driverkind in the cell phone era. You can fine the everloving crap out of drivers caught texting (and many states have), you can build hands-free cell controls and voice commands into every new car (and most carmakers have), and electronics addiction still overpowers it all. There is nothing you can physically do to a crossing to upgrade it in a way that outpaces the decline in driver attention span. Maybe the acceleration of that decline in attention span is starting to level off now that smartphones are pretty much as uniquitous as they're ever going to get, but actually catching up with better crossing technology to how much attention span has declined since the mid-90's is impossible and out-of-reach.

The only thing you can really do to measurably improve safety is to close (close...not separate) every crossing that has no reason to exist. Then do the best you can with crossing protection on the ones that have to exist: quadrant gates, those plastic road dividers and high-visibility signage/paint markings, early-warning sensors, and signal preemption for queue management where possible. Maybe even balancing the quiet zone needs with audio warning someone wearing earbuds in the car can hear with those wayside horns like they're installing on the Springfield Line in Wallingford...where it sounds like a real train horn but has a very narrow sound profile that dissipates quickly outside the immediate crossing area. And definitely a lot stricter shared responsibility with DOT's and town DPW's to improve road safety around the crossings: trimming trees and installing lighting around poor sightlines, widening excessively narrow pavement where possible within X feet of the crossing so drivers have more room to quickly back out/around if they get stuck, straightening roads where possible to be perpendicular to the crossing instead of at bad angles with pronounced blind spot. Then just deal with the remaining risk as a fact of life and fact of fate. It'll have been mitigated down significantly enough for the rest of chance and stupidity to be a tolerable trade-off.


I don't see a whole lot of shared responsibility being proposed here when Blumenthal, Cuomo, and Schumer open their respective big, bigger, and biggest mouths. They are still not willing to lock horns with the villages who won't allow the 3 or 4 most unnecessary of these 9 Harlem Line crossings to get outright jersey-barriered out of existence. They're focusing exclusively on crossing protection and not the DOTs' and DPWs' responsibility to improve the wretched sightlines and constrained/little-margin-for-error road surfaces at these crossings. You still have insanity in CT at town-control streets where the towns have total carte blanche to disable state-installed signal preemption when some idiot selectman wants to save 5 seconds off his speed-trap commute home, as happened at one of the insanely dangerous Springfield Line + busway crossings in West Hartford. They won't give the road half of this equation a responsibility to do their share; the railroad ends up bearing all the cost. And so there's plenty of lower-traffic but still quite dangerous crossings out there that are subsisting on no early warning signage or paint on the pavement, no tree-trimming around obscured crossbucks, no active protection whatsoever, godawful road sightlines that haven't improved in 100 years, and a blame game that the RR should shoulder all liability. When it gets that cheap and petty it hurts the smallest of shortlines too, not just the commuter rails.

Spoiled suburban car drivers are still the vote-pander demographic that rules here. And until some of these pols get brave enough to start empowering some centralized state control over all modes to initiate action at problem crossings, nothing is going to substantially change. "Jetsons @#$%" crossing protection doesn't help when towns want to be crossing protection NIMBY's on their town-control roads (and even state-control roads when their Legislators nix improvements) when that 5-second head start is non-negotiable. And, really, the outward sign that nothing's going to change is how little talk there's been by any elected official at pursuing closures of unnecessary crossings. Not here where a third of these Harlem electric zone crossings could get closed off tomorrow at zero ill effect. And definitely not in the CDOT land of whimsy where all those easy NEC eliminations got declared 'aesthetically hands-off' even when there was boatloads of fed money available to take care of three-quarters of them. And where things as basic as signal preemption turns into World War III between levels of government.
Last edited by F-line to Dudley via Park on Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by Adirondacker
 
Tommy Meehan wrote:.....when more accurate figures were compiled by the city deaths "fell" to zero in many years and it was generally agreed more New Yorkers were killed each year by streetcars on Third Avenue.
How many people die every year in Westchester in automobile accidents that don't involve trains? How many pedestrians are mowed down by cars and trucks. How many die?

Grade separating the railroad will probably come out of the railroad's capital budget and the railroad will have to maintain it.
  by DutchRailnut
 
no any crossing of rails be it crossing, tunnel or overpass is paid for by town, not railroad.
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