New Hampshire Commuter Rail Discussion

eustis22 wrote:There's no reason Plaistow commuters can't commute from Haverhill. There's a bigger market Manchester/Londonderry/Derry/Salem.

>obliterated

It was my understanding railbanked ROWs cannot be obstructed?

A good point on the face of it, although I think the idea behind the movement to get rail service to Plaistow is to reduce the necessity to drive to a parking lot, which would be a challenge on snowy winter days or for those without vehicles. The trend today, especially among those who are referred to as "millennials", to quote one of many trite clichés in todays world, are those who are delaying getting a vehicle. I don't know if Plaistow has any public transportation today, but perhaps even a shuttle bus to Haverhill station could serve for now, as it would give those without vehicles an option to take the train, or those who drive to Haverhill and find the lot full when they get there. Unless, of course, New Hampshire is dead set against even bus transportation for Plaistow.

atlantis wrote:

eustis22 wrote:There's no reason Plaistow commuters can't commute from Haverhill. There's a bigger market Manchester/Londonderry/Derry/Salem.

>obliterated

It was my understanding railbanked ROWs cannot be obstructed?

A good point on the face of it, although I think the idea behind the movement to get rail service to Plaistow is to reduce the necessity to drive to a parking lot, which would be a challenge on snowy winter days or for those without vehicles. The trend today, especially among those who are referred to as "millennials", to quote one of many trite clichés in todays world, are those who are delaying getting a vehicle. I don't know if Plaistow has any public transportation today, but perhaps even a shuttle bus to Haverhill station could serve for now, as it would give those without vehicles an option to take the train, or those who drive to Haverhill and find the lot full when they get there. Unless, of course, New Hampshire is dead set against even bus transportation for Plaistow.

The only public transit in Plaistow is MVRTA bus (Haverhill's regional transit authority) Route 13, which stops at Cedar Brook shopping plaza straddling the state line. Nowhere else. In theory the Plaistow residents who live within less than a mile's walking distance to the plaza can bravely cross 125, pick up the bus, and get straight to the downtown Haverhill commuter rail station in a crisp 15 minutes once every 30-45 minutes or so.

That is...if they don't mind the fact that neither 125 nor 121A have any sidewalks whatsoever. And if they happen to have a Charlie Card for getting around the T in Boston, since MVRTA buses also use that as primary means of fare collection.


I'm going to guess that's a very, very, very small pool of NH riders and nearly all of the current Route 13 patronage are native Haverhillians whose municipal overlords actually bothered to install sidewalks on their fair streets.

atlantis wrote:The trend today, especially among those who are referred to as "millennials", to quote one of many trite clichés in todays world, are those who are delaying getting a vehicle.

You can say that again.. It's sounds more like a tag than a demographic.

But getting to the point let's not forget that:

1) Not only are us "millennials" delaying acquiring a car in some form (leasing vs. buying, etc.) but

2) It's quite possible that a number of us have no desire or intention on ever having a car. I myself (though I am more conservative minded ) am very pro-public transportation to the point that the presence of -or lack of- public transport in a certain area is one of the main factors (if not THE main factor) in my decision on living in a certain town or city. The mere idea of not having to have a car to pay for, maintain, park (which in a city ain't easy!), etc. feels very liberating.

3) Many of us "millennials" are also facing a lot of economic uncertainty which is no doubt a contributor to our delaying acquiring not just a car, but also a house among other things. Assets that our parents' generation(s) could afford are now not within reach. Having reliable dependable public transportation (even with rising fares) is FAR less demanding on a wallet than having a car. Especially if one is only able to leas instead of buy.

4) The Car-Free Movement -from what I can see- is very popular with people of various demographics, age groups, etc.

Plaistow simply might not have the the "millennial" demographic to help push commuter rail into town. Durham, Exeter, and Dover OTOH might -the UNH student and faculty body could likely fill a train or two with lower fares and a more frequent schedule than the Downeaster- so if demand there is high enough to make a Dover extension a priority somewhere down the line that could be the metaphorical slam dunk.

In the meantime if Plaistow has no interest/desire for commuter rail then let it be and have attention turned to Nashua/Manchester/Concord and Portsmouth (the latter of which would serve an area that -as F-line has stated- is the most pro-rail part of NH). Two CR extensions with great potential.

NH2060 wrote:In the meantime if Plaistow has no interest/desire for commuter rail then let it be and have attention turned to Nashua/Manchester/Concord and Portsmouth (the latter of which would serve an area that -as F-line has stated- is the most pro-rail part of NH). Two CR extensions with great potential.

I don't think the issue here is lack of interest in Plaistow. It's a lack of political power by those who are interested in Commuter Rail vs. those who are not. For the moment those who are in control not only in Plaistow but statewide in New Hampshire have no interest or belief in the value of supporting commuter rail operations as part of a multi-modal transportation plan. This scenario is exactly how Virginia got gridlocked and eventually became one of the single largest supporters of Amtrak's state supported services. I think New Hampshire still has a ways to go on this issue. The density of population isn't quite there yet, but they are getting closer every day.

>but this project will benefit so little of the state it has to be done right.

Outside of Southwestern NH (Keene, ect), I should think the Southern Tier from Concord south provides as much of a commuter market as all of northern mass. Does NH really only benefit if North Conway does?

Wait...these are the anti-tax Massachusetts expats. never mind.

As a Haverhill resident, I say, LET Plaistow crash.

eustis22 wrote:>but this project will benefit so little of the state it has to be done right.

Outside of Southwestern NH (Keene, ect), I should think the Southern Tier from Concord south provides as much of a commuter market as all of northern mass. Does NH really only benefit if North Conway does?

Wait...these are the anti-tax Massachusetts expats. never mind.

As a Haverhill resident, I say, LET Plaistow crash.

Not even close.

Middlesex and Essex counties in MA make up 2 million people.

Hillsborough, Merrimack and Rockingham make up 850 thousand - and only a fraction of those commute to MA (based on highway data and (lack of) mass transit data).


Exactly, let them decide their own fate, you don't live there, not your call.

newpylong wrote:Exactly, let them decide their own fate, you don't live there, not your call.

And that is the healthiest outcome possible.

People in southern New Hampshire will have no one to blame but themselves when the commute into Boston becomes so congested that living in New Hampshire and commuting to Massachusetts is no longer a viable option.

gokeefe wrote:

newpylong wrote:Exactly, let them decide their own fate, you don't live there, not your call.

And that is the healthiest outcome possible.

People in southern New Hampshire will have no one to blame but themselves when the commute into Boston becomes so congested that living in New Hampshire and commuting to Massachusetts is no longer a viable option.

Which is exactly what those disagreeable some of them want. They'd love to have the state entirely to themselves to be all alone.

Hamhock wrote:Which is exactly what those disagreeable some of them want. They'd love to have the state entirely to themselves to be all alone.

And that's okay too. Very much the same attitude that has prevailed lately here in Maine to a certain extent.

The key here is that this is the mindset that is actually going to accelerate the onset of a collapse of a solely highway based passenger transportation system.

There is simply going to be no relief whatsoever in whole or in part that will delay or mitigate traffic congestion in New Hampshire. To a certain extent Plaistow is the final nail in the coffin. At least in this instance there would have been some kind of partial relief that would have allowed a bare minimum chance for commuting by rail from southern New Hampshire on the T.

Now that is likely "lost and gone" perhaps forever.

Overall, I think that's a good thing as it forces people in New Hampshire to confront the reality that the only potential solutions to this question are going to be their own. In a way it also simplifies and streamlines the situation as it removes the MBTA and Massachusetts politics from the equation. Sure, the T is eventually going to be a partner of some kind regardless, but what they probably won't be is the operator.

>Middlesex and Essex counties in MA make up 2 million people.

I should have specified the Outside 495 area since Boston and its environs pretty much have their own transit systems in place.

>not your call

I believe the lack of public transit everywhere is everyone's problem. I think I can sit here safe in my Higher Bastion of Civilization and still want everyone to be able to opt out of driving. Your condescension, however, is noted,

eustis22 wrote:>Middlesex and Essex counties in MA make up 2 million people.

I should have specified the Outside 495 area since Boston and its environs pretty much have their own transit systems in place.

>not your call

I believe the lack of public transit everywhere is everyone's problem. I think I can sit here safe in my Higher Bastion of Civilization and still want everyone to be able to opt out of driving. Your condescension, however, is noted,

Self Determination, not condescension.

As of 11AM Wednesday, Jan 28, Newton Jct. NH, tracks were still buried in about 12in of snow..no trains in sight. Seems like this would have been a good opportunity to show the benefits of passenger rail. I'm sure in the B&M days things might have been different...."the mail must go through!". Interestingly, the mail did go through, in Newton Jct. today, but not by rail. Clearly the present day and future of rail is bulk transit of commodities and containers. I would wait for better mass transit options for NH than commuter rail. Would anyone really want to ride coach from Concord to Boston anyways? Maybe Maglev will happen...maybe there is something better coming?

Is NH really responsible for providing transit options to avoid congested roads in and to MA cities? In state, many of us live acres apart...we even have multi acre residencies in our biggest cities. We also have zoning laws to help keep it that way. Its simply not practical to travel without a car in NH. The fact that our city busses ride around empty shows that most agree. Our motor vehicle registrations are reasonable, and there's no excise tax. Furthurmore, our 80,000 residents who work in MA, don't all work in Boston, (and many don't work in practical distance from a T stop). I suspect they don't even account for 1/3 of the daily traffic across the border.

I live in a town on the NH/MA border - right next to Nashua.

I will no longer commute to Boston. Over 10 years ago, US-3 was widened and now it's ALMOST as bad as it used to be. I work in the Bedford/Lexington (MA) area and I have to be in the office by 5:30AM so that I can leave by 3PM to beat the traffic. I recently stopped by a hospital to visit an ailing relative on my way home and hitting US-3 at 3:30PM meant traffic all the way from 128 to 495.

My best friend, who lives in Nashua, just took a job at a bank next to the Bayside Exposition center (near Columbia Point) and, in order to manage his commute, he's renting a room in the area - $800/mo or so - while his family stays in the house in Nashua.

The lack of *options* is making NH less and less attractive. It seems, to me, to be a no-brainer to upgrade and start service going AT LEAST as far as Manchester.

djlong wrote:The lack of *options* is making NH less and less attractive. It seems, to me, to be a no-brainer to upgrade and start service going AT LEAST as far as Manchester.

That's a very sensible and rational line of thinking. Unfortunately I think things will have to be much worse before that happens. Basically until the congestion gets so bad that people stop moving to New Hampshire there won't be any change. I don't think we're quite there yet.

gokeefe wrote:Unfortunately I think things will have to be much worse before that happens. Basically until the congestion gets so bad that people stop moving to New Hampshire there won't be any change. I don't think we're quite there yet.

Unfortunately, Mass may not have the discipline to make sure that the congestion costs imposed by NH residents' long trips are, in fact, borne by NH commuters. Mass employers will start calling for congestion relief on Mass stretches of Route 3/93 (and so will the "half" of drivers who are Mass live-work commuters).

Almost by definition, people living in sprawly places (as NH is described, above) drive more miles (it is near-impossible to craft a short commute for oneself) and so their trips use/congest more lane-miles of highway each morning/evening commute. They use a disproportionate amount of Massachusetts peak-hour road capacity--exactly the use that causes us to have to build more roads.

mileage-based Tolls would help (they needn't be punitive "border crossing" tolls, though that'd be the most effective at sending this "market signal")